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san ren sei, attach, counter hane
Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:34 am
by Knotwilg
I've been playing this opponent 4 times already on OGS and he deploys the same strategy, which I want to discuss here, with some help from our botty friends
Re: san ren sei, attach, counter hane
Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:41 am
by Bill Spight
I don't know if it is best in this situation, but I have seen this variation vs. sanrensei in the Elf commentaries.
$$Bcm9
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 3 1 X 9 7 . 0 . b . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 2 O 5 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 3 1 X 9 7 . 0 . b . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 2 O 5 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
With
at
a or
b.
Edit: That was versus sanrensei by Black, which is questionable these days by both humans and bots. I suppose that it is held in even less regard for White.
Re: san ren sei, attach, counter hane
Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:41 am
by John Tilley
I had not seen White 10 before, a most interesting move. It can be found in Suzuki's Great Joseki Dictionary - which provides 28 diagrams. (Volume 1 diagrams 3073 to 3100). Do you have access to this 3 volumed work? If not I might be persuaded to copy the three pages and email them to you. I'll refrain from posting them as I am sure there are copyright issues.
You can usually find this work second-hand on Japan Yahoo Auctions, as no-one wants big heavy books, for a very modest price; however if you have to ask how much it costs for air-mail to Europe maybe it's too expensive!
Best Wishes - John Tilley
Re: san ren sei, attach, counter hane
Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:50 am
by Gomoto
Fair use in my opinion.
(And copying is not better than posting.)
Re: san ren sei, attach, counter hane
Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:36 am
by Bill Spight
Hi, Tilley! Long time. The Berkeley Go Club has a copy. Several years ago I provided the club with a small Japanese-English dictionary for many of the terms in it.
But I agree that fair use for educational purposes would allow posting some variations with English comments which are not verbatim translations. But 3 pages may be too much material. (US law would allow posting all the variations sans comments, but I don't think Japanese law does. IANAL, OC.)
Re: san ren sei, attach, counter hane
Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:03 am
by John Tilley
I attach a three page PDF that has been OCRed - you can cut and paste the characters into a translation website - such as Jisho.org Please note that I have NOT attempted to proof read for OCR accuracy - but hopefully it's a step in the right direction.
I was reluctant to just copy the pages for general use, perhaps having OCRed them it becomes "fair" use.
If anyone wants a crib-sheet of the diagram comments I'll see what I can do.
Best Wishes - John Tilley
Re: san ren sei, attach, counter hane
Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:16 pm
by Uberdude
It's a bit of a cop-out answer, but in my experience when I've come across people playing this counter hane they are generally weaker than me, so it doesn't really matter if I reply in the absolute best way (and I typically just atari and connect and take the side territory) because I will beat them later anyway. They are often overly focused on making the san ren sei into territory, so will answer a reduction passively, you give them the points and make your own big side plus 2 big corners. And you can always attach under the hoshi for giggles. I do recall though reviewing a game with Catalin Taranu 5p where it cropped up and he advocated the pull back of Knotwilg's 4, a patient and thick move typical of his style.
Re: san ren sei, attach, counter hane
Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:23 pm
by Gomoto
How about this?
Re: san ren sei, attach, counter hane
Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:06 am
by Gomoto
Had the chance to try something similar in a game: