Life In 19x19

Can anyone explain what this set of problems is supposed to teach? It seems like these are encouraging really awful moves. I must be missing the point, and I haven't had much luck finding the meaning of "Jie" either.

imabuddha wrote:Can anyone explain what this set of problems is supposed to teach? It seems like these are encouraging really awful moves. I must be missing the point, and I haven't had much luck finding the meaning of "Jie" either.

Jie = Ko doesn't it ?

topazg wrote:
Jie = Ko doesn't it ?

That makes sense since these problems seem to encourage starting kos. My confusion stems from the fact that most of these kos seem bad or pointless for the player starting them.

Perhaps the whole point of this set is just to show how to start a ko, not how to start a useful/good ko?

Can you give an example of a problem for which you think the solution is not a good move?

imabuddha wrote:

topazg wrote:
Jie = Ko doesn't it ?

That makes sense since these problems seem to encourage starting kos. My confusion stems from the fact that most of these kos seem bad or pointless for the player starting them.

Perhaps the whole point of this set is just to show how to start a ko, not how to start a useful/good ko?

I expect that the kos are actually good for the player with the move. (That does not mean that the player will win the ko, OC. ) Perhaps you could post a problem where the ko seems bad to you.

Bill Spight wrote:I expect that the kos are actually good for the player with the move. (That does not mean that the player will win the ko, OC. ) Perhaps you could post a problem where the ko seems bad to you.

I'm sure the lesson is supposed to be helpful, but it just seems crazy to me.

Here's an example:

imabuddha wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:I expect that the kos are actually good for the player with the move. (That does not mean that the player will win the ko, OC. ) Perhaps you could post a problem where the ko seems bad to you.

I'm sure the lesson is supposed to be helpful, but it just seems crazy to me.

...

If black wins the ko, he can live in this example.

Kirby wrote:If black wins the ko, he can live in this example.

OK, but my confusion stems from the fact that it doesn't appear winnable. I guess one's supposed to assume that if this were a larger board and one had more ko threats than the opponent then this ko should be played?

The vast majority of go problems I've seen before explicitly call for a solution without a ko. The few involving ko I've done in the past involve winning a ko not just starting one.

Overall I'm really enjoying the GoChild site, and it does seem to be re-wiring my brain to quickly see solutions to go problems elsewhere & in actual games, but this set seems like developing bad habits.

imabuddha wrote:

Kirby wrote:If black wins the ko, he can live in this example.

OK, but my confusion stems from the fact that it doesn't appear winnable. I guess one's supposed to assume that if this were a larger board and one had more ko threats than the opponent then this ko should be played?

The vast majority of go problems I've seen before explicitly call for a solution without a ko. The few involving ko I've done in the past involve winning a ko not just starting one.

Overall I'm really enjoying the GoChild site, and it does seem to be re-wiring my brain to quickly see solutions to go problems elsewhere & in actual games, but this set seems like developing bad habits.

You don't necessarily need to win the Ko. Your group is dead without the Ko anyway, initiating the Ko either lets you live, or gives you two moves in a row.

By initiating the Ko you only give your opponent two more points. Surely you can find two separate moves or two moves in conjunction which are worth more than two points somewhere on the board.

That's how I see it at least.

imabuddha wrote:

Kirby wrote:If black wins the ko, he can live in this example.

OK, but my confusion stems from the fact that it doesn't appear winnable. I guess one's supposed to assume that if this were a larger board

Well, yeah.

and one had more ko threats than the opponent then this ko should be played?

You don't need to have more ko threats than your opponent to want to start this ko.

The point is not to find a way to live unconditionally.

If you just give up on this group, then it is dead and your opponent gets all its points.

If you start a ko, and lose the ko, then the group is dead and your opponent gets all its points, and you get to play a ko threat somewhere else that he had to ignore in order to win the ko. So you got something out of starting the ko even you ended up losing it.

Hmm, well, I guess I just don't see the point of a set of problems for how to start a ko. I mean, it seems obvious how to start a ko.

Just because you can't "win" a ko doesn't mean you shouldn't start it. It all depends on how much compensation you can get from fighting a ko (and also a little bit about how desperate you are).

I personally do not get how you say starting the ko can be bad for black. If he loses, he's still dead. If he wins, he lives. Now, knowing exactly when to start a ko is tricky business, but I doubt all that many tsumego can answer the question of timing. Even killing or living with a group could be completely wrong if the timing isn't there (i.e. there are bigger moves elsewhere).

Now, in that example, obviously it is the case that black has lost the game. Even if he were to win the ko he would lose the game. So I wouldn't think about that position occurring on a 7x7 board, but instead picture that position occurring on a 19x19 board where ko threats exist. The point of this particular problem isn't to find all the ko threats and such, nor to know exactly when to start the ko, it is simply to start the ko in the first place.

Edit:

imabuddha wrote:Hmm, well, I guess I just don't see the point of a set of problems for how to start a ko. I mean, it seems obvious how to start a ko.

Maybe these problems are too easy for you. Let me find a few harder ones, and then post them here.

imabuddha wrote:Hmm, well, I guess I just don't see the point of a set of problems for how to start a ko. I mean, it seems obvious how to start a ko.

I particularly liked that set of problems because I have a hard time seeing potential (ideally picnic-) ko. I'm a bit better at it than I had been before, though.

This particular corner pattern isn't obvious, at least not to some players. I mean...it's not designed for dan level players, but there is a point in your development as a go player where you won't see that connect and die or that this group could live in ko.

imabuddha wrote:Hmm, well, I guess I just don't see the point of a set of problems for how to start a ko. I mean, it seems obvious how to start a ko.

It's often not obvious to me. All the time I make the mistake of leaving a group for dead because I can't see how to make it live unconditionally, instead of trying to start a ko for life. Of course, I am not very strong yet.

It may be easy to start a ko, but hard to see the possibility of starting it.