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The new standard of online play

Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2022 3:40 am
by RobertJasiek
In earlier years, byoyomi-only online dan games were as much about strategy as tactics. In recent years, play has become more aggressive. Maybe this is so with more impact of Chinese amateurs and copying AI style. Now, a player is likely to lose unless he does the following at all and correctly on each move, usually within a few seconds:

1. verify life and death, or connection, statuses

2. positional judgement

3. do not miss moves of large value during opening and middle game

Time is too fast for always correct endgame but at least play almost correct endgame. Strategy, however, is almost immaterial; you can play what you want as long as it is not obviously bad and you apply the aforementioned principles.

Re: The new standard of online play

Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2022 4:23 am
by kvasir
I don't play much byoyomi only games except Canadian byoyomi and I don't think that is what you mean. So I can't say I have the same experience.

Is strategy and style something that can easily be distinguished? In my experience many strong Japanese and Chinese players choose to play a style that empathizes basic fighting principles, life and death, and in general not being too flashy. That is not what everyone does but it sounds similar to what you describe and I don't know if it is better described as a "style" or a "strategy". There are certainly many players that consistently hone the same strategy to the extend that it becomes their own style.

That three point process for every move seem pretty good. Maybe it is pessimistic to say someone is likely to lose if they fail to do it? Maybe the player that can do this more consistently than his opponent is much more likely to win.

Re: The new standard of online play

Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2022 4:48 am
by RobertJasiek
Here is an example.


Re: The new standard of online play

Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:00 am
by illluck
I feel like that's always been the case for the faster time settings. I honestly feel like dan games, say, 8-9 years back are similar to dan games now (though my reading has sadly deteriorated haha).

Edit: Can only speak for low dan games, most of which are decided by point 1.

Re: The new standard of online play

Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:49 am
by Knotwilg
What most people probably realize by doing AI reviews is that the opening and the end game don't really matter much and all major swings happen in the middle game, mostly by either losing sente with a slow local move or losing a group by playing a big move elsewhere too hastily. There are more heuristics, for which I refer to my mistakes series both here and on SL.

So the main difference I see is perhaps not so much more fighting but more awareness of sente. Long drawn out joseki are out of fashion because most of the time there's a way to take sente in exchange for a minor local loss. In the early days post AI we saw a lot of early 3-3 invasions and a board full of those but nowadays I see more 3-4 points with 3-5 approaches and even approaches to 4-4, mixed up with those invasions. We even see pincers to the approach, if the pincer cooperates with friendly influence at the other end.

We have also learnt that taking central influence in exchange for side territory is only viable if there's influence at the other side too, forming a framework of sorts. Just taking influence for future use is not so valuable, as the opponent can more easily reduce it than one can remove any territory. Lone boshis are rarer, we attack more sideways to make territory while doing so.

When "the stones go walking", it's a sharper race than before, struggling for getting ahead and/or take sente. Amateur games look more professional there now - there's no room for complacency. Before, amateur games looked "professional" in the opening, only to fall apart quickly after.

Human pros have always been playing away earlier than human amateurs, shifting back and forth between positions. We see AI do more of that but amateurs don't emulate that behavior so easily.

In most of my games I see no significant mistakes in the endgame, except for some outright blunders. Most of us seem to know the shapes, understand what's big or small and how to keep sente in the engdame.

As an end note, yesterday I played a 2d on OGS who didn't seem to know the L-group. We played it out till the 3-point eyeshape with my stone in the middle remained. It's only one game but it's not exactly a sign of greater tactical awareness.

Re: The new standard of online play

Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2022 11:07 am
by jeromie
RobertJasiek wrote:Here is an example.
If your comment is primarily pointing out that this doesn't adhere to traditional fuseki, this is a fine example, but it seems to me that there were plenty of strategic choices in the opening of this game. Beginning with move 15, black aimed to carve out the base of the white group with the aim of making an attack on the outside beginning with move 31. Black was able to end in sente and take a big point on the side with 41, which isn't too odd even if making a corner enclosure or approach move first would be more typical. That's a 14 move sequence (by black) that dictates what type of game will be played. Isn't that fairly strategic?

There's a lot of fighting after the opening, but that seems expected when one player uses the early part of the game to build up influence. I see the highly tactical middle game as a consequence of black's early strategic decisions (white seemed happy enough to go along, too). In what way would you say this game is lacking in strategy, as opposed to simply not following traditional fuseki?

Re: The new standard of online play

Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2022 11:53 am
by John Fairbairn
So the main difference I see is perhaps not so much more fighting but more awareness of sente.
I think this is on the right track, but needs more precision for amateurs.

There is a big difference between sente (as it is most commonly used) and the initiative. An obsession with the former leads to ignoring the more important latter. I suspect the roots of the problem lie in two places. One is, specifically, an obsession with boundary plays and counting, which leads to not seeing the overall picture (or if you think you are seeing it, are you seeing it as clearly as you could?). The other is testosterone. Pushing the opponent around, or invading, feels good because it is sente, sente, sente. But it's just like maxing out on your credit cards. There comes a time when the bill is due AND you have to pay interest. Yet you can have the initiative without having sente, and it actually pays YOU dividends!

Sente, sente, sente is just a step up from atari, atari, atari. No half-decent amateur would play a-a-a, so why play s-s-s?

But, that said, the initiative is hard to gain and hard to handle once you have it. Historically, we could say the Japanese went overboard in investing in thickness (in all its senses) and avoiding risk by relying on no komi or small komis, and it took the Koreans to show, in very recent times, how risk-based strategies can pay off (I'd say they were aided in part by shorter time limits, though). Now, AI is apparently telling us even more about the initiative (and next to nothing about sente, incidentally). My own impression is that we (as amateurs) are hampered in getting to grips with that because we lack a framework terminology for it. Pros make up for the lack of terminology by dint of sheer and intense study, so that their intuition is trained to map all the factors inside their brains. You don't need words when you have intuition.

For amateurs, who haven't got the time to build that level of intuition, words are close to essential, as is a tailored course of study. One I would suggest is that, before you embark on AI study, you study Chinese master games of the past. They were not burdened with the deceptive word sente, and instead paid very much to the initiative. The difference with old Japanese games is stark.

Then, to bring this closer to the modern age, this could be followed up by studying what I like to call ley lines. Just as Stone Age man was apparently able to see complex patterns at ground level that we need satellites to see, AI operates with ley lines that connect all the significant parts of the board together. One reason I see value in studying old Chinese games is that they were masters of reading ley lines - they had to be, because group tax meant they had to worry all the time about keeping connections intact, even over great distances. Necessity was the mother of invention. They invented their own relevant terms, too. One was zhaoying (call & response), but they also emphasised "crowding" or pressurising, as opposed to attacking, which kept the INITIATIVE (and so hindered opposing connections, while promoting one's own).

Knotwilg has usefully emphasised several times his realisation that slow connections are bad. As far as I can recall, the main lesson he has taken from that is simply to try to avoid them. A good start. But potentially passive? Maybe a better appreciation of the initiative (and not sente), as per AI play, would teach us not to be so passive. Perhaps we should be thinking more about FAST connections (e.g. via call & response), and connections that lead somewhere, even if we don't understand quite where - like ley lines!

Re: The new standard of online play

Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2022 12:03 pm
by RobertJasiek
As to the example game, I do not say that there would be no strategy. Rather that choosing a particular strategy in a particular position is not so important in such games of constant L+D reading.

Knotwilg, "no significant mistakes in the endgame": Endgame mistakes tend to be relatively small compared to important mistakes during opening and middle game. However, lots of small endgame mistakes can accumulate and go unnoticed even in dan games. When both avoid the big mistakes and make relatively few endgame mistakes, they still do decide the game.

Re: The new standard of online play

Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2022 12:43 pm
by Kirby
John Fairbairn wrote:Historically, we could say the Japanese went overboard in investing in thickness (in all its senses) and avoiding risk by relying on no komi or small komis, and it took the Koreans to show, in very recent times, how risk-based strategies can pay off (I'd say they were aided in part by shorter time limits, though).
Going "overboard in investing in thickness" is a "risk-based strategy", because it means you are playing too slowly, thereby increasing the chances of losing the game. If it's an issue of komi, strategy should adapt to play well according to the rules of the game. On the flip side, if a particular strategy increases the overall win rate of a given pro, there is evidence that that strategy was less risk-based. Professionals are in the business of consistently winning games, and a strategy that is consistent with that is not a risky one.

Re: The new standard of online play

Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2022 12:45 pm
by Kirby
RobertJasiek wrote:As to the example game, I do not say that there would be no strategy. Rather that choosing a particular strategy in a particular position is not so important in such games of constant L+D reading.

Knotwilg, "no significant mistakes in the endgame": Endgame mistakes tend to be relatively small compared to important mistakes during opening and middle game. However, lots of small endgame mistakes can accumulate and go unnoticed even in dan games. When both avoid the big mistakes and make relatively few endgame mistakes, they still do decide the game.
I have seen this happen in an AI review of one of my own games. The AI suggested that I had something like a 98% win rate, but the overall difference in score was very small. I made an endgame mistake at nearly the end of the game, and suddenly, the win rate dropped to something like 1%. This is rather rare, since as you state, most of the big point swings in my games happen earlier :-)

Re: The new standard of online play

Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2022 2:03 pm
by kvasir
Claiming "opening doesn't matter" or "endgame mistakes are small", besides not being true, doesn't change that opening and endgame need to be played well and preferably better than the opponent.

Endgame starts early in many games and it is hard to get a good handle on the big endgame, it is also often more than half the game. Opening is just the start of the game, if played badly then you could equally give handicap and play a little bit better. What I notice, when reviewing with computer, is that when any opponent plays the opening or endgame especially well it is like I never had more than a slim chance in the game.

The opening is how you get to a middle game that you can handle and endgame is how you finish it off. It has to be important :scratch:

Re: The new standard of online play

Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 1:11 am
by Knotwilg
kvasir wrote:Claiming "opening doesn't matter" or "endgame mistakes are small", besides not being true, doesn't change that opening and endgame need to be played well and preferably better than the opponent.

Endgame starts early in many games and it is hard to get a good handle on the big endgame, it is also often more than half the game. Opening is just the start of the game, if played badly then you could equally give handicap and play a little bit better. What I notice, when reviewing with computer, is that when any opponent plays the opening or endgame especially well it is like I never had more than a slim chance in the game.

The opening is how you get to a middle game that you can handle and endgame is how you finish it off. It has to be important :scratch:
At the low-mid dan level, opening and endgame are fairly well understood and it's comparatively hard to make mistakes in these stages that make a difference to the end result. Among the 150 significant mistakes I analyzed in 2021 there was one endgame move and one opening move. All 148 others were middle game moves and bad choices in that conceptual frame. Compound effects do exist but when compounding larger mistakes the effect will be even bigger. Perhaps that just pertains to my own game but I reckon it's representative.

The "big endgame, which starts early", in my frame possibly belongs to the middle game. For me the endgame starts when all groups are settled, all areas are contested and boundary plays remain. Occasionally such boundary play is played before all groups are settled but I consider that a high level probe.

Re: The new standard of online play

Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 1:36 am
by Knotwilg
John Fairbairn wrote:
Knotwilg has usefully emphasised several times his realisation that slow connections are bad. As far as I can recall, the main lesson he has taken from that is simply to try to avoid them. A good start. But potentially passive?
In most of the cases I analyzed there's an active way to avoid the slow connection:

* When in the dominant position, the more active alternative to the slow connection is a surrounding move or an eye space reducing move, in any case a harassing move that forces the opponent to reply and doesn't give any time to execute the cut which the slow connection defends against. The cut would be heavy anyway ("heavy cut" is another observed pattern).

* In the defensive position the active alternative to the slow connection is to live with points or escape into open space.

http://senseis.xmp.net/?DietersMistakesIn2021/Solution4
http://senseis.xmp.net/?DietersMistakes ... Solution31
http://senseis.xmp.net/?DietersMistakes ... Solution46
http://senseis.xmp.net/?DietersMistakes ... Solution47
http://senseis.xmp.net/?DietersMistakes ... Solution48
http://senseis.xmp.net/?DietersMistakes ... Solution73
http://senseis.xmp.net/?DietersMistakes ... Solution80
http://senseis.xmp.net/?DietersMistakes ... olution107
http://senseis.xmp.net/?DietersMistakes ... olution137
http://senseis.xmp.net/?DietersMistakes ... olution140
http://senseis.xmp.net/?DietersMistakes ... olution141
http://senseis.xmp.net/?DietersMistakes ... olution146

After having reworked the lot into separate problem/solution pages I'm now working on the aggregate view, listing solution pages from pattern descriptions.

Re: The new standard of online play

Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:28 am
by kvasir
148 out of 150 mistakes in middle game. Is this not grounds to suspect a bias in your analysis? Alternatively you could be lumping more under "middle game" than is warranted.

It can be hard to find endgame errors and fully evaluate them. I am not sure about your criteria for "significant" errors but I think you mean something that can affect the expected outcome of the game. I'll point out that studying is not only about the size of the errors is also about better technique and improving ones overall resilience as a Go player.

There are many skills that may appear insignificant. Opening doesn't seem to matter if the opponent plays it equally badly, still many games become difficult for one or the other players before move 50. Endgame and border play in general may seem insignificant if you don't occasionally play someone that can outplay you in this part. Not everyone makes it through the opening or middle game when playing stronger players but if you do you may find that you don't have the skill or actually the time on the clock to hold a small lead in endgame. Other skills are similarly limited, for example ten-thousand year ko and carpenter square never occur if you and your opponents don't understand them and the same can be said about many other shapes.

The list of unimportant skills in Go is long. So very long that it probably makes up the greater part of the skills that we lack; that is my conjecture.

Re: The new standard of online play

Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:48 am
by Knotwilg
kvasir wrote:148 out of 150 mistakes in middle game. Is this not grounds to suspect a bias in your analysis?
I think my methodology has been fairly well documented so I won't repeat it here. If you don't like the results of my exercise, there's little I can do about it. I was not biased towards the middle game but the data pointed me there. As to what marks the middle game 1) when the distribution of stones into corner and sides takes a turn to involve the center, due to invasions/reductions or other ways of contesting the areas claimed in the opening 2) when all groups have settled and no area is to be contested anymore.

I don't think my definition of the middle game is substantially different from anyone's gut feeling. You can look at my 150 situations posted: there's a clear peak in move number in the 40s to 90s and then a long tail, depending how long the fighting continued.

I'd like to see other exercises in this fashion, i.e. more data research on the impact of good or bad play in certain stages. I don't remember who it was - you? - but someone pointed out that frequent analyses showed that the point gap is usually larger than the sum of individual point gaps, so there's an invisible compound effect going on. That's the best counterargument to my methodology up to date.