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Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:46 am
by yithril
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 19x19 diagram
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:47 am
by yithril
Alright Kirby, beg me for mercy while you still have the time :p I've already got this allllllll read out.

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:51 am
by Kirby
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , 2 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Jon is a friend of mine from Michigan. Last time we played against each other, he could give me about 5 stones. I've improved a bit since then, but he also just spent a year in Korea studying go... So this should be an interesting game.

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 11:39 am
by yithril
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , 2 . . 3 . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 12:29 pm
by Chew Terr
I'm really looking forwards to this game. I like Yithril's style of writing in the book of his I read, so I imagine the comments and diagrams will be useful. However, it's hard not to cheer for Kirby, as one of our own. It'll be interesting to watch, especially as Yithril is a self-proclaimed fighter/"push-and-cut junkie". Good luck for an enjoyable game, to both of you!

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 12:40 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
Chew Terr wrote:... the book of his ...


Which book?

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 12:48 pm
by Chew Terr
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Chew Terr wrote:... the book of his ...


Which book?


Image

"So You Want to Play Go? Volume 3". I reviewed it in this thread: viewtopic.php?p=8552#p8552. I recommend it, and would appreciate hearing about volumes 1 and 2 if anyone has read them.

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 4:19 pm
by Kirby
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Josekis arising from :w4: are boring to me these days for some reason. I would be very happy to know if people could provide me with some interesting alternatives.

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 5:04 pm
by ketchup
Kirby wrote:
Josekis arising from :w4: are boring to me these days for some reason. I would be very happy to know if people could provide me with some interesting alternatives.


Forget joseki, fight and try to outread :D

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 5:16 pm
by yithril
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 5 X . . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Hopefully I'm using hide tags correctly. I'm avoiding the common plays like the knight's move attachment because everyone and their grandmother knows the joseki for it and there is no way I can create complications that way. There is a joseki for this that I learned in Korea but like I said there's tons of room for variation. I think for handicap games instead of Black's response, the one space jump here is nice and simple, but Kirby is flashy and likes the big knight's moves.

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 5:57 pm
by tundra
yithril wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 19x19 diagram
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I can't help noticing that this move by White gives the "Move Two Lost The Game" position in Takeo Kajiwara's "The Direction of Play". Except that it is even worse for White, as Black has also occupied the other two star points.

So, is this really such a good move for White? Or can it only work if Black gets tricked in some variation? Or is Kajiwara wrong, and White's move is in fact reasonable, even against a player of equal strength?

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 6:02 pm
by Kirby
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


A somewhat unexpected move by yithril... I can't say that it's totally unexpected, because I have come to know this pattern as the "Loons pattern". That's because Loons played this against me a few weeks ago, and it was the first time I really experienced it.

I played the same move as I did just now in that game, and I think that moving out toward the center as :b6: does is correct.

The alternative that comes to mind is descending downward, but I don't think that this works well with my large knight's move. For example, this seems too risky:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 6 5 3 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 6:05 pm
by Chew Terr
tundra wrote:
yithril wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 19x19 diagram
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I can't help noticing that this move by White gives the "Move Two Lost The Game" position in Takeo Kajiwara's "The Direction of Play". Except that it is even worse for White, as Black has also occupied the other two star points.

So, is this really such a good move for White? Or can it only work if Black gets tricked in some variation? Or is Kajiwara wrong, and White's move is in fact reasonable, even against a player of equal strength?

I think that the difference is, it's a handicap game. In the "Move Two" position, black can take something that would give him a better approach than otherwise. However, with the handicap, this gives a lot of options of complications or settling easily, which is good enough. The difference between "Move Two Lost the Game" and "Move Two" on a 3-4 facing the other way is minor. Because white cannot play moves that might otherwise be optimal (for example, the kick becomes better for black), white has to ignore "optimal" and just fight in his own style? At least, that's what I think. Hundreds of years of opening handicap games on 3-4 has shown that it doesn't end the game instantly.

Take this with salt, as I'm terrible at this go business. =D

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 6:32 pm
by yithril
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 6:39 pm
by Bill Spight
Easy fuseki.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . a . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


On the top half of the board, Go Seigen suggests :b1: in even games, because it makes for a relatively easy opening for Black. White does not have a severe pincer.

In a three stone game I like "a", on the theory that high moves tend to work with the handicaps stones. :)