I tend to try and keep reasonably up to date with professional games, and some leave my jaw on the floor in places. Not always from the perspective of brilliance, so much as "I'd never have played that - I really don't understand Go so well!".
Here is a good case example, the following is the first 18 moves of a tournament game involving a 9p against a fellow professional. Question 1) What were the next two moves (one Black, one White, moves 19 and 20). Question 2) Why was this the right global area to play, and the right local position for the stone
Please put answers in hide tags until enough people have a good guess
Edit: forget that, i thought it was white to play. I'm ashamed now.
Re: What came next and why
Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 4:13 am
by daal
Excellent problem, though in this case, I'm not sure that the hide tags are necessary. It might also be interesting to just open a discussion about the position. I for example just looked at Lorill's answer, and thought about the merits of his solution and came to the conclusion that I would answer his b19 with a different w20...
In any case, here are my observations:
B's framework looks better than w's because of the completed shimari. W's compensation is... a stronger lower left? A bit of aji at r14? Blacks plan is to increase his advantage by expanding his framework. I like n 14. White could get some solid cash by playing at k17, but that looks submissive. W does however need to get in a move on the top before b plays m16, so I think w plays a sente move elsewhere, also to expand his framework. I think h4 fits the bill.
Lots of options... if I'm black I'd probably play a move up top, either at C15, D15 or G15. If the move is surprising, I would say a pro would want to remove the aji of R14, but it seems to early and hard to remove in one shot. Maybe C3-D3 instead, as white made a bigger enclosure than normal. Of course black could play for the center and have lots of moves.. This is really very open and it could be anything...
Re: What came next and why
Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 4:41 am
by lorill
daal wrote:I for example just looked at Lorill's answer, and thought about the merits of his solution and came to the conclusion that I would answer his b19 with a different w20...
Of course, since I meant w19 and b20 Sorry, i messed up!
Re: What came next and why
Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 5:34 am
by Stable
W probably wants to p5, so maybe b will do that, then w n14 is probably the interface of 2 moyos.
Re: What came next and why
Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 5:38 am
by topazg
daal wrote:Excellent problem, though in this case, I'm not sure that the hide tags are necessary. It might also be interesting to just open a discussion about the position.
I agree, and I'm happy for this. The hide tags were more intended as a "give people the option not too see other people's thoughts before posting theirs", but I guess that will happen anyway as the OP is not all that short with the two diagrams.
Re: What came next and why
Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 5:46 am
by amnal
daal wrote:Excellent problem, though in this case, I'm not sure that the hide tags are necessary. It might also be interesting to just open a discussion about the position. I for example just looked at Lorill's answer, and thought about the merits of his solution and came to the conclusion that I would answer his b19 with a different w20...
In any case, here are my observations:
B's framework looks better than w's because of the completed shimari. W's compensation is... a stronger lower left? A bit of aji at r14? Blacks plan is to increase his advantage by expanding his framework. I like n 14. White could get some solid cash by playing at k17, but that looks submissive. W does however need to get in a move on the top before b plays m16, so I think w plays a sente move elsewhere, also to expand his framework. I think h4 fits the bill.
This move is almost always bad, it just forces black to fix his H3 weakness whilst leaving white with a stone that needs connecting to something. The normal shape is G5, I think, which at least leaves more aji whilst achieving the same thing.
My guesses:
Black has a bit of a framework, but it has plenty of holes in, so I don't think there will be a framework-only move like N14 or tengen area. If black wants to play this way, I would expect something subtler, like D10 or E10, as a probe to see how white will respond whilst keeping an eye on taking the centre.
P5 seems like a good point for reduction, but black playing there seems quite slow, as there is still aji at R14 and H3. So I don't think black will play in the lower right at all.
It isn't obvious to me that C3 is a bad point (answered by D3, of course), but it also isn't obvious that it is the move to play.
This leaves the top area, which black might like to get into (although, on the other hand, white has no single move to finish it off).
So overall I have 2 predictions that I can't choose between: - C3,D3: Normal, solid moves that take territory and keep the game open (as far as I can see). - D10, E10, maybe D15: Moves aiming to see how white responds, press white down a bit, and build a little strength in order to strengthen a hold on the centre.
Re: What came next and why
Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:27 am
by DrStraw
Just a random guess from someone who is woefully out of practice.
This move is almost always bad, it just forces black to fix his H3 weakness whilst leaving white with a stone that needs connecting to something. The normal shape is G5, I think, which at least leaves more aji whilst achieving the same thing.
I guess what daal hopes is to separate the two black stones but it is important to note that black H3 connects them easily (for example Bh3-Wj3-Bj4-Wg3-Bh2-Wg2-Bg4-Wh5-Bf2). Then that stone at H4 remains almost completely useless. An invasion there could at H3 but this is perhaps not yet the rigth timing.
amnal wrote:My guesses:
Black has a bit of a framework, but it has plenty of holes in, so I don't think there will be a framework-only move like N14 or tengen area. If black wants to play this way, I would expect something subtler, like D10 or E10, as a probe to see how white will respond whilst keeping an eye on taking the centre.
P5 seems like a good point for reduction, but black playing there seems quite slow, as there is still aji at R14 and H3. So I don't think black will play in the lower right at all.
It isn't obvious to me that C3 is a bad point (answered by D3, of course), but it also isn't obvious that it is the move to play.
This leaves the top area, which black might like to get into (although, on the other hand, white has no single move to finish it off).
So overall I have 2 predictions that I can't choose between: - C3,D3: Normal, solid moves that take territory and keep the game open (as far as I can see). - D10, E10, maybe D15: Moves aiming to see how white responds, press white down a bit, and build a little strength in order to strengthen a hold on the centre.
Would a 3-3 invasion at the lower left not weaken the black formation at the bottom? I don't know maybe it is the normal move but I cannot help asking myself whether the damage on the bottom formation is not bigger than the corner. Or was it the initial intention of black 15, either to take the corner or build a moyo at the bottom (like a probe maybe)???
Re: What came next and why
Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:53 am
by amnal
entropi wrote:
Would a 3-3 invasion at the lower left not weaken the black formation at the bottom? I don't know maybe it is the normal move but I cannot help asking myself whether the damage on the bottom formation is not bigger than the corner. Or was it the initial intention of black 15, either to take the corner or build a moyo at the bottom (like a probe maybe)???
It does weaken the bottom, but is also big. I think it is probably (but only probably ) reasonable for a player aiming at a territorial game - white still needs to reduce black's framework if he's worried about it, and in the meantime black can run amok in white's territory. In this kind of game, neither player has to actively develop a moyo shape, but both players might instead work to destroy the opponent's territories. I don't know if this is even a good idea here, but it seems okay to me.
Additional game comment:
Also, I didn't consider DrStraw's moves at all in my analysis, but I find his 19 (and probably 20) extremely reasonable in addition to my previous guesses. They do have a professional 'fixing the shape' feel to them.
Re: What came next and why
Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:55 am
by topazg
My first call would definitely have been C15 or D15 as Black, and then a response from White locally.
However, many of the moves I'd have considered (even P5, and locally I also thought about Q7) have now been mentioned. Shall I reveal the two moves in the game to discuss them, or wait for more suggestions from others?
Re: What came next and why
Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:57 am
by Bill Spight
I am glad not to have seen others' replies. It is more fun this way.
I mean, I understand the whole general idea, but why there? It looks like the sort of thing I'd criticise a DDK for as not being quite enough of anything, and while dual-purpose is good, dual-purpose has to do both purposes well, something that sort of half-does a couple of things isn't a dual purpose move. Yet here we have Gu Li 9p (Black) playing this against Han Sanghoon 5p just the other day. What gives?
) reasonable for a player aiming at a territorial game - white still needs to reduce black's framework if he's worried about it, and in the meantime black can run amok in white's territory. In this kind of game, neither player has to actively develop a moyo shape, but both players might instead work to destroy the opponent's territories. I don't know if this is even a good idea here, but it seems okay to me.