Life In 19x19

I am curious about how others remember and think about past games. Suppose you are away from the board (no computers, or other visual aids). Can you remember a game move for move? Or perhaps you only remember key positions from the game? Do you see the whole board clearly in your memory, or is only a smaller section of the board clear?

Particularly, if there is anyone whose memory of a game is non-visual, or whose memory of the game is significantly different than having a Polaroid picture of a particular board position, I'd love for you to try to describe it.

I even have trouble remembering my most recent move...

I definitely don't have a Polaroid moment. When I memorize pro games, for example, I couldn't start at one corner and lay the stones out on the board like I had a complete picture of the entire position in my head.

My 'memory' of the game is sequential. I only memorize the next moves in relation to the move that came before them. At least that is the way I'm able to replay them. It is sort of like remembering a phone number. Some times I have to key it in to remember it.

With that said, I don't find that I remember my games. I know I can memorize complete games without too much difficulty, but I never do this with my own games. No spare brain power? Actually, I think it is a lack of awareness during the game that keeps this from happening naturally. I'd love to hear from some dan level players on how this 'happens' for them. One of our club's 3 dans can replay teaching games with little or no difficulty. At what stage does begin happening? Or is it something that must be consciously done?

RazorBrain wrote:I definitely don't have a Polaroid moment. When I memorize pro games, for example, I couldn't start at one corner and lay the stones out on the board like I had a complete picture of the entire position in my head.

My 'memory' of the game is sequential. I only memorize the next moves in relation to the move that came before them. At least that is the way I'm able to replay them. It is sort of like remembering a phone number. Some times I have to key it in to remember it.

With that said, I don't find that I remember my games. I know I can memorize complete games without too much difficulty, but I never do this with my own games. No spare brain power? Actually, I think it is a lack of awareness during the game that keeps this from happening naturally. I'd love to hear from some dan level players on how this 'happens' for them. One of our club's 3 dans can replay teaching games with little or no difficulty. At what stage does begin happening? Or is it something that must be consciously done?

I started to remember my games when I was about 5.kyu, but only games where I was focused.

When you play mostly on the internet, there's little need to practice this ability, as your game records are stored automatically. I did most of my early learning over the board, though, and was encouraged to try and remember and replay my games from an early stage. I was only 15k or so at the time, but the dan players at the club assured me that it wasn't that hard, and they were right. I learnt quite quickly to replay most of my game. Admittedly, its much easier if your opponent does it with you in the review, and even now, I sometimes find it hard without their help, particularly if they've played peculiar (to me) moves.

It's absolutely not a photograph of the board, its completely the story of the game: attack this weak group, defend those stones, take a big point here, probe there, play out this joseki here, blunder in that fight there, premature end game move here, etc etc

RazorBrain wrote:I definitely don't have a Polaroid moment. When I memorize pro games, for example, I couldn't start at one corner and lay the stones out on the board like I had a complete picture of the entire position in my head.

My 'memory' of the game is sequential. I only memorize the next moves in relation to the move that came before them. At least that is the way I'm able to replay them. It is sort of like remembering a phone number. Some times I have to key it in to remember it.

With that said, I don't find that I remember my games. I know I can memorize complete games without too much difficulty, but I never do this with my own games. No spare brain power? Actually, I think it is a lack of awareness during the game that keeps this from happening naturally. I'd love to hear from some dan level players on how this 'happens' for them. One of our club's 3 dans can replay teaching games with little or no difficulty. At what stage does begin happening? Or is it something that must be consciously done?

Thinking about it and trying to do it helps. It also gets easier with strength (and, conversely, can make you stronger) because the hard moves to remember are the baseless ones. If you had a reason for a move, you can remember it much more easily than one you had no thought process behind.

Opponents moves are a bit different. A seemingly baseless move, for instance, is memorable for this reason even if it doesn't fit with an obvious pattern.

EDIT: It's completely unlike a 'polaroid'. I'm almost certain that no player remembers the game like this, although they might be able to perform similarly if they thought about it. It's all about the order of moves and the shapes formed, not something that you might have actually seen at any given point.

My memory is more like a narrative. I try to remember the reasons behind the moves, and then I can reconstruct 50-100 moves if I do it the same day. It's not like a photograph at all. (If it were, then I presume I could also play 19x19 blind go, which I certainly cannot. I don't think many people can.)

Because of the narrative memory, if my opponent's moves make no sense to me, it is harder to remember the game. So handicap games against weaker players are harder to remember than ones against stronger ones.

I can't reconstruct a position from the middle of a game. To that, I have to replay from the beginning, following the narrative. So if you ask me, "hey, how close was your opponent's group to that position where your invasion failed" I may be able to remember approximately, but I'd have to replay to that position to be sure. I can't the see the whole board from that point in time.

As long as I'm not tired while playing I can replay games I played myself on a real board 100% immediately afterward, unless my opponent is more than 9 stones weaker than me - then it's difficult. If my opponent and I review the game immediately then I can replay it again anytime later that day, and if I play over it again within the week as well then I'll carry it for a good long while.

The record so far for one of my own games is a 4-stone handicap game I played against a 6-dan at the last NOVA tournament (end of June.) I showed it to a couple of friends as well the week after the tournament, and I still remembered it move for move over a month later. I tried it again just now and failed within the first 4 moves, but I'm pretty tired at the moment. Having gone over the SGF again I'll probably remember it tomorrow though.

The first pro game I memorized I kept around in my head for at least 3 months, but I was so proud of it that I was showing it off to everybody at any chance. Dinner party? Let me show you this awesome game between two pros... THAT I MEMORIZED! Without reinforcement, probably one month or so is the limit for me right now if anything less than 100% correct replay means failure.

When I first started memorizing games (at about 10 kyu) it was a sequence, but now it's definitely a narrative. Pro games are easier to memorize too if you can find the thread of the story. It's difficult sometimes when the reasoning is well beyond what you can read though - those usually start out in memory as sequences anyway, but turn into stories if you play over them enough. Of course if it really is well beyond your level, you may not know if the story is fiction. But that doesn't really matter at the kyu levels... or probably even below 3-4 dan. Just getting the shapes in your muscle memory is enough to help gain a bit of strength through osmosis.

Blindfolded Go

It's worse than "not many".

hyperpape wrote:Blindfolded Go

It's worse than "not many".

Wow, I'm actually rather surprised at that article. When a friend of mine at the VCU Go Club became shodan (catching up to me at the time) we had both seen the episode of Hikaru no Go where Akira is forced to play blind go. We thought that would be a fine idea (Andrew is a chess IM, and had experience with blind chess already anyway.) We arranged with another club member to act as the recordkeeper (playing the game on a real board as we called the coordinates.) It was really fun, but REALLY strenuous. I don't know how you could do it at 30 seconds per move (let me rephrase, I don't know how I could do it at 30 seconds per move.)

The game ended at move 110 or so when Andrew put a stone where I already had one (we knew going into it that we weren't likely to finish, so we decided that attempting an illegal play meant instant resignation, as the person doing that would have lost the thread of the game in his head anyway.)

BUT, the only reason we got that far is because I was playing to remember, not playing to win. I had four corners and some third line territory, and Andrew had an absolutely MASSIVE central moyo. He wanted to continue the game, but I think I resigned after less than a dozen moves. It was hopeless.

But we both would have taken over 6 stones from any pro - I wouldn't be surprised if some people could have given us 10. I find it difficult to believe that so few people have surpassed two random, rather weak amateurs in the visual memory department. Maybe it's more a matter of nobody really trying?

The hardest part wasn't visualizing the board, actually. The really hard part was converting your moves into coordinate numbers you could call out WHILE keeping the picture in your head. That part took almost 30 seconds itself, AFTER deciding where to play. Probably gets faster with practice though.

I once played out a blindfold opening during dinner because there were no boards available. It was actually surprisingly easy, but we never called out any coordinates. Instead, you say stuff like: "I hane at the bottom", "I take the 5-point extension on the top side", "one-point jump", etcetera. I think we got to about 40 moves with no problem whatsoever, but then the main course arrived and the wine took over .

Our recordkeeper was about 16k, if I recall correctly, so things like "one space jump" might have been met with "which direction?" So we had to use coordinates.

It makes sense to anyway - it's too easy to have ambiguity come up in the middle game. Which kosumi you mean is perfectly obvious... unless your opponent invaded the OTHER three space extension, or didn't think about the move in question.

I went to a go workshop, came home with five games in my head, and recorded them all soon as I got home. Most hard part of remembering is opening parts...but once you see the moves set down, it's easy to remember the reasoning behind each move, so it's easy to record them all. IN other words, if you think about the moves and try to reason out your moves, it's a lot easier to "memorize" your own games.

And as for memorizing pro games...I believe that it comes in two components...1) feeling the shape, and remembering the final shape. 2) Trying to form own reasonings behind each move. I usually can get through Shusaku games and remember the games after maybe 2 go-throughs. (I usually go through it once so I can check through all moves since I'm using a book, not a sgf, then go through again to add meanings behind the moves.) Of course, maintaining the memory will require studying the game time to time.

rubin427 wrote:I am curious about how others remember and think about past games. Suppose you are away from the board (no computers, or other visual aids). Can you remember a game move for move? Or perhaps you only remember key positions from the game? Do you see the whole board clearly in your memory, or is only a smaller section of the board clear?

Particularly, if there is anyone whose memory of a game is non-visual, or whose memory of the game is significantly different than having a Polaroid picture of a particular board position, I'd love for you to try to describe it.

I would describe my memory of a game or game sequence as a narrative with poor illustrations. My narrative usually begins with a partial visualization, and then tries to describe the moves as actions with attention to their consequences.

For example, "(On the top left)I had failed to make a base for my low approach stone (on the left side) and he was able to pincer it from a strong position on the bottom. I had to run and he kept attacking, extending from his corner making a nice chunk of territory on the top..."

Typically, this type of narrative falls apart when the position gets at all tricky, and since I don't have exact co-ordinates in my mind, the tactical consequences tend to blur and I remember mostly the strategical consequences of the result. Here's an example of this:

"On the right side, I had a three space high-low extension after having approached my opponents bottom right hoshi low and then playing the middle star point after he had shimaried. Later he invaded on the third line. I jumped on top of his stone trying to keep connected. He haned to the right (as if I was viewing from the right side of the board), I crosscut putting him in atari. He extended and ... I .... ataried his other stone, (where is it? How many stones has he played?) then he ataried (which stone?), separating my star stone from the rest of the group. I connected my ataried stone, and he caught my outside stone in a ladder. I ended up with a skimpy but not uncomfortable group between two strong positions."

I see the narrative as a kind of visual aid with an emphasis on the overall dynamics of a situation. I also see it as being "not good enough."

On a side note: In yet another attempt to improve my visualization skills, I have been playing out josekis in my mind's eye, adding specific coordinates to the narrative. I have seen a few improvements, such as remembering better the outset of the joseki and with much much repetition, I am getting better at counting the liberties of a group in the middle of the joseki without losing track of the other stones. The key phrase being: "with much much repetition."

Stuff sounds pretty intense. Perhaps to make it easier, you could try having a second board that just stays blank of stones all the time and place your fingers where you would like to place your moves. While the record board could be kept somewhere away so neither could see it.

As far as my game memory goes, I can more or less play out a game I just played (not the whole thing, but parts at least). That's about as good as I can do. I'm not sure how much the memory thing can be used to help your game though, someone may be excellent at recalling passed moves but horrible at estimating future ones.