From a recent game of mine, white to play. I felt in control the whole game, but now I have a game-ending move. Should be easy!
$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O X X X . . . . O . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X . O X O . O . O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . O O X O O O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X , . . X X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . X . O . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . O . O X O O . . X . X X . | $$ | . . . . O . . . O X X X O O . . . O . | $$ | . . . O X O . O . X . X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . X . O X . O . X X O O O . | $$ | . . O X X . . X . . . . O X X O X X . | $$ | O . O X . O . . X . X X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . O O . . . X O . O X X . . | $$ | X X X X . O X . . O . X O . O X O X . | $$ | X O O . . O X O . . . X X O X X . . X | $$ | O O . O . O X X X X X X O O O X X X O | $$ | . . . . O X X . O O O O . O X O O O O | $$ | . . . . O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O X X X . . . . O . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X . O X O . O . O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . O O X O O O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X , . . X X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . X . O . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . O . O X O O . . X . X X . | $$ | . . . . O . . . O X X X O O . . . O . | $$ | . . . O X O . O . X . X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . X . O X . O . X X O O O . | $$ | . . O X X . . X . . . . O X X O X X . | $$ | O . O X . O . . X . X X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . O O . . . X O . O X X . . | $$ | X X X X . O X . . O . X O . O X O X . | $$ | X O O . . O X O . . . X X O X X . . X | $$ | O O . O . O X X X X X X O O O X X X O | $$ | . . . . O X X . O O O O . O X O O O O | $$ | . . . . O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I'll be curious to see what level of player is able to see this easily. My 5k opponent was taken completely by surprise; he said he doesn't recall seeing this move before. I (4k) was able to spot the tesuji very quickly, though I had to be careful to read out all the continuations.
Re: Whole board problem from recent game
Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:28 pm
by robinz
I'm only a (very) weak player, so the following may be totally wrong. But it looks OK to me right now:
I think the move below effectively cuts off black's left-hand clump of stones, and thus kills them:
$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O X X X . . . . O . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X . O X O . O . O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . O O X O O O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X , . . X X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . X . O . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . O . O X O O . . X . X X . | $$ | . . . . O . . . O X X X O O . . . O . | $$ | . . . O X O . O . X . X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X a X b O X . O . X X O O O . | $$ | . . O X X . 1 X . . . . O X X O X X . | $$ | O . O X . O . . X . X X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . O O . . . X O . O X X . . | $$ | X X X X . O X . . O . X O . O X O X . | $$ | X O O . . O X O . . . X X O X X . . X | $$ | O O . O . O X X X X X X O O O X X X O | $$ | . . . . O X X . O O O O . O X O O O O | $$ | . . . . O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O X X X . . . . O . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X . O X O . O . O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . O O X O O O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X , . . X X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . X . O . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . O . O X O O . . X . X X . | $$ | . . . . O . . . O X X X O O . . . O . | $$ | . . . O X O . O . X . X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X a X b O X . O . X X O O O . | $$ | . . O X X . 1 X . . . . O X X O X X . | $$ | O . O X . O . . X . X X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . O O . . . X O . O X X . . | $$ | X X X X . O X . . O . X O . O X O X . | $$ | X O O . . O X O . . . X X O X X . . X | $$ | O O . O . O X X X X X X O O O X X X O | $$ | . . . . O X X . O O O O . O X O O O O | $$ | . . . . O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
- essentially a and b seem to be miai to connect or cut (black needing both, so obviously he can't get them). Black can try an atari on 1, but that doesn't seem to change anything.
Assuming this is correct (and I may well have missed something - I'm only 12k on KGS and have lost my last several games there ), it took me quite a long time to see it, but mainly because, in a whole board problem, it takes that long to see what possibilities you have. (I spent most of my time trying to find ways to kill black's enormous dragon, but eventually concluded that it wasn't possible.) This technique seems to occur in a lot of 12k or 15k-rated problems on goproblems.com, so (again, this is assuming I'm right, and it works) I'm surprised a 5k hadn't come across it.
Re: Whole board problem from recent game
Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:29 pm
by karaklis
My idea would be to separate the black group from the rest of the board. Spotted within seconds.
$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O X X X . . . . O . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X . O X O . O . O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . O O X O O O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X , . . X X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . X . O . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . O . O X O O . . X . X X . | $$ | . . . . O . . . O X X X O O . . . O . | $$ | . . . O X O . O . X . X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . X . O X . O . X X O O O . | $$ | . . O X X . 1 X . . . . O X X O X X . | $$ | O . O X . O . . X . X X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . O O . . . X O . O X X . . | $$ | X X X X . O X . . O . X O . O X O X . | $$ | X O O . . O X O . . . X X O X X . . X | $$ | O O . O . O X X X X X X O O O X X X O | $$ | . . . . O X X . O O O O . O X O O O O | $$ | . . . . O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O X X X . . . . O . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X . O X O . O . O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . O O X O O O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X , . . X X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . X . O . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . O . O X O O . . X . X X . | $$ | . . . . O . . . O X X X O O . . . O . | $$ | . . . O X O . O . X . X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . X . O X . O . X X O O O . | $$ | . . O X X . 1 X . . . . O X X O X X . | $$ | O . O X . O . . X . X X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . O O . . . X O . O X X . . | $$ | X X X X . O X . . O . X O . O X O X . | $$ | X O O . . O X O . . . X X O X X . . X | $$ | O O . O . O X X X X X X O O O X X X O | $$ | . . . . O X X . O O O O . O X O O O O | $$ | . . . . O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Edit: This doesn't seem to be the whole story:
$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O X X X . . . . O . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X . O X O . O . O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . O O X O O O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X , . . X X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . X . O . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O 6 O . O X O O . . X . X X . | $$ | . . . . O 4 . . O X X X O O . . . O . | $$ | . . . O X O 5 O . X . X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X 2 X 3 O X . O . X X O O O . | $$ | . . O X X . 1 X . . . . O X X O X X . | $$ | O . O X . O . . X . X X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . O O . . . X O . O X X . . | $$ | X X X X . O X . . O . X O . O X O X . | $$ | X O O . . O X O . . . X X O X X . . X | $$ | O O . O . O X X X X X X O O O X X X O | $$ | . . . . O X X . O O O O . O X O O O O | $$ | . . . . O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O X X X . . . . O . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X . O X O . O . O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . O O X O O O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X , . . X X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . X . O . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O 6 O . O X O O . . X . X X . | $$ | . . . . O 4 . . O X X X O O . . . O . | $$ | . . . O X O 5 O . X . X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X 2 X 3 O X . O . X X O O O . | $$ | . . O X X . 1 X . . . . O X X O X X . | $$ | O . O X . O . . X . X X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . O O . . . X O . O X X . . | $$ | X X X X . O X . . O . X O . O X O X . | $$ | X O O . . O X O . . . X X O X X . . X | $$ | O O . O . O X X X X X X O O O X X X O | $$ | . . . . O X X . O O O O . O X O O O O | $$ | . . . . O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Then it will be a capturing race, and I am too exhausted to read it out who will win
Re: Whole board problem from recent game
Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:45 pm
by Li Kao
Complicated...
$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O X X X . . . . O . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X . O X O . O . O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . O O X O O O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X , . . X X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . X . O . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O 8 O . O X O O . . X . X X . | $$ | . . . . O 6 . . O X X X O O . . . O . | $$ | . . . O X O 7 O . X . X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X 3 X 2 O X . O . X X O O O . | $$ | . . O X X 4 1 X . . . . O X X O X X . | $$ | O . O X . O 5 . X . X X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . O O . . . X O . O X X . . | $$ | X X X X . O X . . O . X O . O X O X . | $$ | X O O . . O X O . . . X X O X X . . X | $$ | O O . O . O X X X X X X O O O X X X O | $$ | . . . . O X X . O O O O . O X O O O O | $$ | . . . . O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O X X X . . . . O . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X . O X O . O . O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . O O X O O O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X , . . X X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . X . O . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O 8 O . O X O O . . X . X X . | $$ | . . . . O 6 . . O X X X O O . . . O . | $$ | . . . O X O 7 O . X . X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X 3 X 2 O X . O . X X O O O . | $$ | . . O X X 4 1 X . . . . O X X O X X . | $$ | O . O X . O 5 . X . X X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . O O . . . X O . O X X . . | $$ | X X X X . O X . . O . X O . O X O X . | $$ | X O O . . O X O . . . X X O X X . . X | $$ | O O . O . O X X X X X X O O O X X X O | $$ | . . . . O X X . O O O O . O X O O O O | $$ | . . . . O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Re: Whole board problem from recent game
Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:03 pm
by Solomon
karaklis wrote:
My idea would be to separate the black group from the rest of the board. Spotted within seconds.
$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O X X X . . . . O . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X . O X O . O . O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . O O X O O O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X , . . X X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . X . O . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . O . O X O O . . X . X X . | $$ | . . . . O . . . O X X X O O . . . O . | $$ | . . . O X O . O . X . X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . X . O X . O . X X O O O . | $$ | . . O X X . 1 X . . . . O X X O X X . | $$ | O . O X . O . . X . X X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . O O . . . X O . O X X . . | $$ | X X X X . O X . . O . X O . O X O X . | $$ | X O O . . O X O . . . X X O X X . . X | $$ | O O . O . O X X X X X X O O O X X X O | $$ | . . . . O X X . O O O O . O X O O O O | $$ | . . . . O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O X X X . . . . O . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X . O X O . O . O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . O O X O O O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X , . . X X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . X . O . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . O . O X O O . . X . X X . | $$ | . . . . O . . . O X X X O O . . . O . | $$ | . . . O X O . O . X . X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . X . O X . O . X X O O O . | $$ | . . O X X . 1 X . . . . O X X O X X . | $$ | O . O X . O . . X . X X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . O O . . . X O . O X X . . | $$ | X X X X . O X . . O . X O . O X O X . | $$ | X O O . . O X O . . . X X O X X . . X | $$ | O O . O . O X X X X X X O O O X X X O | $$ | . . . . O X X . O O O O . O X O O O O | $$ | . . . . O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Edit: This doesn't seem to be the whole story:
$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O X X X . . . . O . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X . O X O . O . O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . O O X O O O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X , . . X X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . X . O . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O 6 O . O X O O . . X . X X . | $$ | . . . . O 4 . . O X X X O O . . . O . | $$ | . . . O X O 5 O . X . X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X 2 X 3 O X . O . X X O O O . | $$ | . . O X X . 1 X . . . . O X X O X X . | $$ | O . O X . O . . X . X X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . O O . . . X O . O X X . . | $$ | X X X X . O X . . O . X O . O X O X . | $$ | X O O . . O X O . . . X X O X X . . X | $$ | O O . O . O X X X X X X O O O X X X O | $$ | . . . . O X X . O O O O . O X O O O O | $$ | . . . . O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O X X X . . . . O . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X . O X O . O . O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . O O X O O O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X , . . X X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . X . O . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O 6 O . O X O O . . X . X X . | $$ | . . . . O 4 . . O X X X O O . . . O . | $$ | . . . O X O 5 O . X . X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X 2 X 3 O X . O . X X O O O . | $$ | . . O X X . 1 X . . . . O X X O X X . | $$ | O . O X . O . . X . X X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . O O . . . X O . O X X . . | $$ | X X X X . O X . . O . X O . O X O X . | $$ | X O O . . O X O . . . X X O X X . . X | $$ | O O . O . O X X X X X X O O O X X X O | $$ | . . . . O X X . O O O O . O X O O O O | $$ | . . . . O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Then it will be a capturing race, and I am too exhausted to read it out who will win
$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O X X X . . . . O . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X . O X O . O . O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . O O X O O O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X , . . X X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . X . O . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O 5 O . O X O O . . X . X X . | $$ | . . . . O 4 . . O X X X O O . . . O . | $$ | . . . O X O . O . X . X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X 2 X 3 O X . O . X X O O O . | $$ | . . O X X . 1 X . . . . O X X O X X . | $$ | O . O X . O . . X . X X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . O O . . . X O . O X X . . | $$ | X X X X . O X . . O . X O . O X O X . | $$ | X O O . . O X O . . . X X O X X . . X | $$ | O O . O . O X X X X X X O O O X X X O | $$ | . . . . O X X . O O O O . O X O O O O | $$ | . . . . O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O X X X . . . . O . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X . O X O . O . O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . O O X O O O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X , . . X X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . X . O . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O 5 O . O X O O . . X . X X . | $$ | . . . . O 4 . . O X X X O O . . . O . | $$ | . . . O X O . O . X . X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X 2 X 3 O X . O . X X O O O . | $$ | . . O X X . 1 X . . . . O X X O X X . | $$ | O . O X . O . . X . X X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . O O . . . X O . O X X . . | $$ | X X X X . O X . . O . X O . O X O X . | $$ | X O O . . O X O . . . X X O X X . . X | $$ | O O . O . O X X X X X X O O O X X X O | $$ | . . . . O X X . O O O O . O X O O O O | $$ | . . . . O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Li Kao wrote:
Complicated...
$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O X X X . . . . O . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X . O X O . O . O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . O O X O O O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X , . . X X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . X . O . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O 8 O . O X O O . . X . X X . | $$ | . . . . O 6 . . O X X X O O . . . O . | $$ | . . . O X O 7 O . X . X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X 3 X 2 O X . O . X X O O O . | $$ | . . O X X 4 1 X . . . . O X X O X X . | $$ | O . O X . O 5 . X . X X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . O O . . . X O . O X X . . | $$ | X X X X . O X . . O . X O . O X O X . | $$ | X O O . . O X O . . . X X O X X . . X | $$ | O O . O . O X X X X X X O O O X X X O | $$ | . . . . O X X . O O O O . O X O O O O | $$ | . . . . O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O X X X . . . . O . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X . O X O . O . O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . O O X O O O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X , . . X X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . X . O . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O 8 O . O X O O . . X . X X . | $$ | . . . . O 6 . . O X X X O O . . . O . | $$ | . . . O X O 7 O . X . X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X 3 X 2 O X . O . X X O O O . | $$ | . . O X X 4 1 X . . . . O X X O X X . | $$ | O . O X . O 5 . X . X X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . O O . . . X O . O X X . . | $$ | X X X X . O X . . O . X O . O X O X . | $$ | X O O . . O X O . . . X X O X X . . X | $$ | O O . O . O X X X X X X O O O X X X O | $$ | . . . . O X X . O O O O . O X O O O O | $$ | . . . . O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O X X X . . . . O . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X . O X O . O . O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . O O X O O O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X , . . X X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . X . O . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O X O . O X O O . . X . X X . | $$ | . . . . O X . . O X X X O O . . . O . | $$ | . . . O X O O O . X . X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O X X O X . O . X X O O O . | $$ | . . O X X X O X 1 . . . O X X O X X . | $$ | O . O X . O O 2 X 3 X X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . O O 4 . . X O . O X X . . | $$ | X X X X . O X . 5 O . X O . O X O X . | $$ | X O O . . O X O . . . X X O X X . . X | $$ | O O . O . O X X X X X X O O O X X X O | $$ | . . . . O X X . O O O O . O X O O O O | $$ | . . . . O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O X X X . . . . O . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X . O X O . O . O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . O O X O O O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X , . . X X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . X . O . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O X O . O X O O . . X . X X . | $$ | . . . . O X . . O X X X O O . . . O . | $$ | . . . O X O O O . X . X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O X X O X . O . X X O O O . | $$ | . . O X X X O X 1 . . . O X X O X X . | $$ | O . O X . O O 2 X 3 X X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . O O 4 . . X O . O X X . . | $$ | X X X X . O X . 5 O . X O . O X O X . | $$ | X O O . . O X O . . . X X O X X . . X | $$ | O O . O . O X X X X X X O O O X X X O | $$ | . . . . O X X . O O O O . O X O O O O | $$ | . . . . O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Re: Whole board problem from recent game
Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:10 pm
by fwiffo
Araban found the game line in his last diagram, which I think is the trickiest resistance. Those white stones in the K6 area seemed so amazingly, coincidentally convenient!
Re: Whole board problem from recent game
Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:13 pm
by Marcus
I think it's this:
$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O X X X . . . . O . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X . O X O . O . O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . O O X O O O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X , . . X X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . X . O . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . O . O X O O . . X . X X . | $$ | . . . . O . . . O X X X O O . . . O . | $$ | . . . O X O . O . X . X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . X . O X . O . X X O O O . | $$ | . . O X X . 1 X . . . . O X X O X X . | $$ | O . O X . O . . X . X X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . O O . . . X O . O X X . . | $$ | X X X X . O X . . O . X O . O X O X . | $$ | X O O . . O X O . . . X X O X X . . X | $$ | O O . O . O X X X X X X O O O X X X O | $$ | . . . . O X X . O O O O . O X O O O O | $$ | . . . . O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O X X X . . . . O . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X . O X O . O . O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . O O X O O O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X , . . X X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . X . O . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . O . O X O O . . X . X X . | $$ | . . . . O . . . O X X X O O . . . O . | $$ | . . . O X O . O . X . X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . X . O X . O . X X O O O . | $$ | . . O X X . 1 X . . . . O X X O X X . | $$ | O . O X . O . . X . X X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . O O . . . X O . O X X . . | $$ | X X X X . O X . . O . X O . O X O X . | $$ | X O O . . O X O . . . X X O X X . . X | $$ | O O . O . O X X X X X X O O O X X X O | $$ | . . . . O X X . O O O O . O X O O O O | $$ | . . . . O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Seems like the best way to do it. Haven't read everything out, but I think you win any of the dangerous looking semeai variations.
Of course, watch me be wrong.
Re: Whole board problem from recent game
Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:23 pm
by fwiffo
A lot of people are getting the first move, but nobody's reading out the continuation.
Hint #1:
I don't think white can be forced into a capturing race, so that's not the right solution even if it works!
Hint #2:
What does Kageyama want you to practice reading every day?
Re: Whole board problem from recent game
Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:29 pm
by Li Kao
Yet another tricky sequence...
$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O X X X . . . . O . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X . O X O . O . O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . O O X O O O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X , . . X X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . X . O . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . O . O X O O . . X . X X . | $$ | . . . . O 5 4 . O X X X O O . . . O . | $$ | . . . O X O 2 O . X . X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X 6 X 3 O X . O . X X O O O . | $$ | . . O X X . 1 X . . . . O X X O X X . | $$ | O . O X . O . . X . X X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . O O . . . X O . O X X . . | $$ | X X X X . O X . . O . X O . O X O X . | $$ | X O O . . O X O . . . X X O X X . . X | $$ | O O . O . O X X X X X X O O O X X X O | $$ | . . . . O X X . O O O O . O X O O O O | $$ | . . . . O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O X X X . . . . O . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X . O X O . O . O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . O O X O O O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X , . . X X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . X . O . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . O . O X O O . . X . X X . | $$ | . . . . O 5 4 . O X X X O O . . . O . | $$ | . . . O X O 2 O . X . X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X 6 X 3 O X . O . X X O O O . | $$ | . . O X X . 1 X . . . . O X X O X X . | $$ | O . O X . O . . X . X X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . O O . . . X O . O X X . . | $$ | X X X X . O X . . O . X O . O X O X . | $$ | X O O . . O X O . . . X X O X X . . X | $$ | O O . O . O X X X X X X O O O X X X O | $$ | . . . . O X X . O O O O . O X O O O O | $$ | . . . . O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Re: Whole board problem from recent game
Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:43 pm
by robinz
fwiffo wrote:A lot of people are getting the first move, but nobody's reading out the continuation.
Yep, looks like I was guilty of that. I'd missed some of the ways black could make it difficult - I often do this in games; I guess that's why I'm only 12k
Re: Whole board problem from recent game
Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:07 pm
by Solomon
Li Kao wrote:
Yet another tricky sequence...
$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O X X X . . . . O . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X . O X O . O . O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . O O X O O O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X , . . X X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . X . O . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . O . O X O O . . X . X X . | $$ | . . . . O 5 4 . O X X X O O . . . O . | $$ | . . . O X O 2 O . X . X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X 6 X 3 O X . O . X X O O O . | $$ | . . O X X . 1 X . . . . O X X O X X . | $$ | O . O X . O . . X . X X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . O O . . . X O . O X X . . | $$ | X X X X . O X . . O . X O . O X O X . | $$ | X O O . . O X O . . . X X O X X . . X | $$ | O O . O . O X X X X X X O O O X X X O | $$ | . . . . O X X . O O O O . O X O O O O | $$ | . . . . O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O X X X . . . . O . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X . O X O . O . O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . O O X O O O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X , . . X X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . X . O . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . O . O X O O . . X . X X . | $$ | . . . . O 5 4 . O X X X O O . . . O . | $$ | . . . O X O 2 O . X . X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X 6 X 3 O X . O . X X O O O . | $$ | . . O X X . 1 X . . . . O X X O X X . | $$ | O . O X . O . . X . X X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . O O . . . X O . O X X . . | $$ | X X X X . O X . . O . X O . O X O X . | $$ | X O O . . O X O . . . X X O X X . . X | $$ | O O . O . O X X X X X X O O O X X X O | $$ | . . . . O X X . O O O O . O X O O O O | $$ | . . . . O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This was the sequence that was actually bothering me at first, but I think it can be remedied with a small preparation made beforehand.
$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O X X X . . . . O . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X . O X O . O . O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . O O X O O O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X , . . X X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . X 2 O . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . 1 X . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . O . O X O O . . X . X X . | $$ | . . . . O . . . O X X X O O . . . O . | $$ | . . . O X O . O . X . X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . X . O X . O . X X O O O . | $$ | . . O X X . . X . . . . O X X O X X . | $$ | O . O X . O . . X . X X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . O O . . . X O . O X X . . | $$ | X X X X . O X . . O . X O . O X O X . | $$ | X O O . . O X O . . . X X O X X . . X | $$ | O O . O . O X X X X X X O O O X X X O | $$ | . . . . O X X . O O O O . O X O O O O | $$ | . . . . O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O X X X . . . . O . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X . O X O . O . O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . O O X O O O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X , . . X X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . X 2 O . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . 1 X . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . O . O X O O . . X . X X . | $$ | . . . . O . . . O X X X O O . . . O . | $$ | . . . O X O . O . X . X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . X . O X . O . X X O O O . | $$ | . . O X X . . X . . . . O X X O X X . | $$ | O . O X . O . . X . X X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . O O . . . X O . O X X . . | $$ | X X X X . O X . . O . X O . O X O X . | $$ | X O O . . O X O . . . X X O X X . . X | $$ | O O . O . O X X X X X X O O O X X X O | $$ | . . . . O X X . O O O O . O X O O O O | $$ | . . . . O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O X X X . . . . O . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X . O X O . O . O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . O O X O O O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X , . . X X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . X B O . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X 7 . W X . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . O . O X O O . . X . X X . | $$ | . . . . O 5 4 . O X X X O O . . . O . | $$ | . . . O X O 2 O . X . X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X 6 X 3 O X . O . X X O O O . | $$ | . . O X X . 1 X . . . . O X X O X X . | $$ | O . O X . O . . X . X X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . O O . . . X O . O X X . . | $$ | X X X X . O X . . O . X O . O X O X . | $$ | X O O . . O X O . . . X X O X X . . X | $$ | O O . O . O X X X X X X O O O X X X O | $$ | . . . . O X X . O O O O . O X O O O O | $$ | . . . . O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O X X X . . . . O . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X . O X O . O . O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . O O X O O O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X , . . X X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . X B O . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X 7 . W X . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . O . O X O O . . X . X X . | $$ | . . . . O 5 4 . O X X X O O . . . O . | $$ | . . . O X O 2 O . X . X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X 6 X 3 O X . O . X X O O O . | $$ | . . O X X . 1 X . . . . O X X O X X . | $$ | O . O X . O . . X . X X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . O O . . . X O . O X X . . | $$ | X X X X . O X . . O . X O . O X O X . | $$ | X O O . . O X O . . . X X O X X . . X | $$ | O O . O . O X X X X X X O O O X X X O | $$ | . . . . O X X . O O O O . O X O O O O | $$ | . . . . O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Re: Whole board problem from recent game
Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:01 am
by shapenaji
Araban, how about this?
$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O X X X . . . . O . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X . O X O . O . O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . O O X O O O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X , . . X X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . X . O . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O 5 O . O X O O . . X . X X . | $$ | . . . . O 4 7 . O X X X O O . . . O . | $$ | . . . O X O 6 O . X . X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X 2 X 3 O X . O . X X O O O . | $$ | . . O X X . 1 X . . . . O X X O X X . | $$ | O . O X . O . . X . X X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . O O . . . X O . O X X . . | $$ | X X X X . O X . . O . X O . O X O X . | $$ | X O O . . O X O . . . X X O X X . . X | $$ | O O . O . O X X X X X X O O O X X X O | $$ | . . . . O X X . O O O O . O X O O O O | $$ | . . . . O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O X X X . . . . O . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O X . O X O . O . O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . O O X O O O X O . X . . . | $$ | . . O X X X X X X , . . X X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . X . O . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O 5 O . O X O O . . X . X X . | $$ | . . . . O 4 7 . O X X X O O . . . O . | $$ | . . . O X O 6 O . X . X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . O X 2 X 3 O X . O . X X O O O . | $$ | . . O X X . 1 X . . . . O X X O X X . | $$ | O . O X . O . . X . X X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . O O . . . X O . O X X . . | $$ | X X X X . O X . . O . X O . O X O X . | $$ | X O O . . O X O . . . X X O X X . . X | $$ | O O . O . O X X X X X X O O O X X X O | $$ | . . . . O X X . O O O O . O X O O O O | $$ | . . . . O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Re: Whole board problem from recent game
Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:08 am
by shapenaji
I believe you still need to make that first move to prevent LiKao's example though, I don't see any way out of those complications once you start the cut
Re: Whole board problem from recent game
Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:43 am
by DrStraw
fwiffo wrote:
Araban found the game line in his last diagram, which I think is the trickiest resistance. Those white stones in the K6 area seemed so amazingly, coincidentally convenient!
That is what good shape does for you.
Re: Whole board problem from recent game
Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:03 am
by gaius
Cool move! I'm probably boring, but I probably wouldn't even have looked for it, because white is already leading by 10+ points on the board in late endgame. Thus, any big yose should do the trick just as nicely. Still, it's a nice tesuji if you read it out all the way!
), it took me quite a long time to see it, but mainly because, in a whole board problem, it takes that long to see what possibilities you have. (I spent most of my time trying to find ways to kill black's enormous dragon, but eventually concluded that it wasn't possible.) This technique seems to occur in a lot of 12k or 15k-rated problems on goproblems.com, so (again, this is assuming I'm right, and it works) I'm surprised a 5k hadn't come across it.
