Club game from last night (from memory). I'm black, two stones vs. AGA 4d.
I'm posting for the nice tsumego at move 52 and 157. Enjoy.
[sgf-full](;CA[Windows-1252]AB[pd]AP[MultiGo:4.4.4]SZ[19]AB[dp]MULTIGOGM[1] ;W[de];B[pp];W[cn];B[fp];W[dj];B[cc];W[ec];B[ce];W[cf];B[df];W[cd];B[be];W[cg];B[dd] ;W[ee];B[dc];W[ed];B[nc];W[hq];B[kq];W[ho];B[fn];W[ko];B[lp];W[hm];B[fl];W[fj];B[bo] ;W[eq];B[ep];W[fq];B[gp];W[ir];B[pn];W[qq];B[qp];W[pq];B[rq];W[rr];B[rp];W[nq];B[np] ;W[mp];B[mo];W[op];B[mq];W[no];B[oo];W[mp];B[nn];W[nr];B[np]C[Status\: Can white tenuki?] ;W[qi]C[Black to kill];B[sr];W[rs];B[ps]C[I played it out of order];W[pr];B[qg] ;W[ql];B[pk];W[rj];B[pi];W[pj];B[oj];W[ph];B[oi];W[qh];B[oh];W[pg];B[hp];W[ip];B[io] ;W[jp];B[jn];W[in];B[jo];W[km];B[im];W[jm];B[hn];W[kn];B[go];W[il];B[jq];W[iq];B[kp] ;W[in];B[ho];W[cr];B[hk];W[gl];B[gk];W[fk];B[gm];W[ik];B[hj];W[hl];B[ij];W[el];B[fm] (;W[jj];B[ji];W[kj];B[ih];W[ki];B[kh];W[lh];B[kg];W[mj];B[lk]C[M13 woud be so much better for me; I was too focused on killing] ;W[lg];B[li];W[lj];B[mi];W[kf];B[jg];W[mk];B[mh];W[mf];B[nf];W[ne];B[of];W[md];B[ie] ;W[mc];B[oc];W[oe];B[pe];W[pf];B[mg]C[-1 liberty];W[lf];B[ol];W[nl];B[nm];W[nj] ;B[qj]C[Also -1 liberty];W[og];B[pl];W[mm];B[ng];W[ni];B[nh];W[jf];B[if];W[hg];B[ig] ;W[ic];B[jd];W[jc];B[kc];W[kb];B[kd];W[lb] (;B[qf];W[rg];B[rf];W[rh]C[Black to kill.];B[sg]C[Not like this...];W[si];B[rm] ;W[rl];B[qm];W[sk];B[hh];W[gg];B[gh];W[qc];B[rd];W[pc];B[qd];W[rc];B[od];W[ob];B[nb] ;W[oa];B[sf];W[sh];B[sd];W[qb];B[re];W[co];B[dq];W[dr];B[cp];W[bn];B[dm];W[en];B[dn] ;W[eo];B[do];W[em];B[dl];W[ek];B[bp];W[bl];B[ck];W[bk];B[cj];W[bi];B[bj];W[aj];B[ci] ;W[bh];B[eh]C[Somehow we made a ko here which I screwed up, but I don't remember how.])))[/sgf-full]
I think then it will be a ko or w will connect at r10 and then b will try to squeeze him down.
Or am I missing something crucial?
I don't think there will be a ko. He cannot capture any b stones you played so he is left with a dead shape.
edit: I had a double negation where I meant one.
overkill
Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:25 pm
by cyclops
w can't tenuki at w53 ( I think )
$$c $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X X . . . . | $$ , . X , X O X X X . | $$ . X . X O 2 O O X . | $$ . . 5 4 O 1 3 9 O 7 | $$ . . . 0 . . 6 . 8 . | $$ --------------------+
[go]$$c $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X X . . . . | $$ , . X , X O X X X . | $$ . X . X O 2 O O X . | $$ . . 5 4 O 1 3 9 O 7 | $$ . . . 0 . . 6 . 8 . | $$ --------------------+[/go]
Next b has a quick and a slow way to kill. If not w10 b will kill there.
Some more variations:
[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]AP[Drago:3.00.02]SZ[13]AB[lk][lj][kj][jj][ii][hj][gk][ek][fj][hi]AW[ij][hk][hl][jk][kk][ll];B[il] ;W[ik]C[lest b kills corner];B[jl] (;W[gl];B[fl] (;W[jm];B[ml] (;W[lm];B[kl] ;W[gm]C[lest b kills there. But now b can kill in 2 ways. Quickly or slowly.];B[im]) (;W[km];B[gm]) (;W[gm];B[lm];W[kl];B[im])) (;W[im];B[gm] (;W[ml];B[kl]) (;W[km];B[ml])) (;W[gm];B[kl]) (;W[kl];B[ml] (;W[lm];B[jm];W[gm];B[im]) (;W[jm];B[lm];W[gm];B[im])) (;W[ml];B[kl])) (;W[jm];B[ml] (;W[km];B[gl]) (;W[gl] ;B[fl]C[already discussed])) (;W[ml] ;B[kl]C[3 lib's against 2]) (;W[lm];B[ml];W[gl];B[fl] (;W[gm];B[im];W[jm];B[kl]) (;W[jm];B[kl];W[gm];B[im]) (;W[im];B[gm]) (;W[kl];B[jm];W[gm];B[im])))[/sgf-full]
edit: I think b54 in the game is also correct. But b56 lets w of the hook. Should be at p2.
Re: Tsumego from a game.
Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 8:24 pm
by HermanHiddema
$$Bc $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X X . . . . | $$ , . X , X O X X X . | $$ . X . X O 5 O O X . | $$ . . . . O a 4 . O 1 | $$ . . . . . . 3 b 2 . | $$ --------------------+
[go]$$Bc $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X X . . . . | $$ , . X , X O X X X . | $$ . X . X O 5 O O X . | $$ . . . . O a 4 . O 1 | $$ . . . . . . 3 b 2 . | $$ --------------------+[/go]
After , a and b are miai for killing.
Re: Tsumego from a game.
Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:43 pm
by Dusk Eagle
I would've played the first one like this:
$$B $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X X . . . . | $$ , . X , X O X X X . | $$ . X . X O 3 O O X . | $$ . . . . O 4 5 6 O 1 | $$ . . . . . . 7 . 2 . | $$ --------------------+
[go]$$B $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X X . . . . | $$ , . X , X O X X X . | $$ . X . X O 3 O O X . | $$ . . . . O 4 5 6 O 1 | $$ . . . . . . 7 . 2 . | $$ --------------------+[/go]
$$B $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X X . . . . | $$ , . X , X 6 X X X . | $$ . X . X O 8 O O X . | $$ . . . 9 O O 5 7 O X | $$ . . . . . . . . O . | $$ --------------------+
[go]$$B $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X X . . . . | $$ , . X , X 6 X X X . | $$ . X . X O 8 O O X . | $$ . . . 9 O O 5 7 O X | $$ . . . . . . . . O . | $$ --------------------+[/go]
Herman's variation appears to work as well.
Re: Tsumego from a game.
Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:25 pm
by HermanHiddema
Dusk Eagle wrote:I would've played the first one like this:
$$B $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X X . . . . | $$ , . X , X O X X X . | $$ . X . X O 3 O O X . | $$ . . . . O 4 5 6 O 1 | $$ . . . . . . 7 . 2 . | $$ --------------------+
[go]$$B $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X X . . . . | $$ , . X , X O X X X . | $$ . X . X O 3 O O X . | $$ . . . . O 4 5 6 O 1 | $$ . . . . . . 7 . 2 . | $$ --------------------+[/go]
$$B $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X X . . . . | $$ , . X , X 6 X X X . | $$ . X . X O 8 O O X . | $$ . . . 9 O O 5 7 O X | $$ . . . . . . . . O . | $$ --------------------+
[go]$$B $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X X . . . . | $$ , . X , X 6 X X X . | $$ . X . X O 8 O O X . | $$ . . . 9 O O 5 7 O X | $$ . . . . . . . . O . | $$ --------------------+[/go]
Herman's variation appears to work as well.
Yes, there are several ways to kill it, you can also capture first, before the hane in the corner.
My intention was to show it could still be killed after the game sequence, but I guess I was wrong, because this works for white:
$$Bc $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X X . . . . | $$ , . X , X O X X X . | $$ . X . X O 5 O O X . | $$ . . . . O . 4 . O 1 | $$ . . . . . 6 3 . 2 . | $$ --------------------+
[go]$$Bc $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X X . . . . | $$ , . X , X O X X X . | $$ . X . X O 5 O O X . | $$ . . . . O . 4 . O 1 | $$ . . . . . 6 3 . 2 . | $$ --------------------+[/go]
Re: Tsumego from a game.
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:44 am
by Bill Spight
Both problems illustrate the principle of restricting eye-space.
BTW, can't Black kill at move 159?
Re: Tsumego from a game.
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 4:15 am
by cyclops
Bill Spight wrote:Both problems illustrate the principle of restricting eye-space.
BTW, can't Black kill at move 159?
OC, and you knew it;) ( Suddenly I discovered what OC stands for ).
BTW if b extends at C11 at move 200 wouldn't he "easily" connect to either the NW or the center thereby killing w's side resp w's center. w is quite short in liberties on both sides. B's bending move at 200 reduces his own liberties.
Thx Daniel for your braveness to share this game with us.
Re: Tsumego from a game.
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:41 am
by daniel_the_smith
HermanHiddema wrote:
$$Bc $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X X . . . . | $$ , . X , X O X X X . | $$ . X . X O 5 O O X . | $$ . . . . O a 4 . O 1 | $$ . . . . . . 3 b 2 . | $$ --------------------+
[go]$$Bc $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X X . . . . | $$ , . X , X O X X X . | $$ . X . X O 5 O O X . | $$ . . . . O a 4 . O 1 | $$ . . . . . . 3 b 2 . | $$ --------------------+[/go]
After , a and b are miai for killing.
3 and 5 have to be played in the other order (Dusk Eagle's 5 looks like it works, too, instead of 3 here). I actually read this out correctly in the game and then played in the wrong order.
Bill: yeah, true, at 159 it's not too late. But 157 doesn't really help any. The second problem I got totally confused on in the game because I was somehow thinking there was going to be a ko even though it's obvious there won't be-- I think I was giving white an extra move in my head.
Re: overkill
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:14 pm
by Dusk Eagle
cyclops wrote:w can't tenuki at w53 ( I think )
$$c $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X X . . . . | $$ , . X , X O X X X . | $$ . X . X O . O O X . | $$ . . . . O 1 . . O . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------+
[go]$$c $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X X . . . . | $$ , . X , X O X X X . | $$ . X . X O . O O X . | $$ . . . . O 1 . . O . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------+[/go]
Yes, this seems to work too. Nice job.
Re: Tsumego from a game.
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:22 pm
by daniel_the_smith
Dusk Eagle, Cyclops:
$$c $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X X . . . . | $$ , . X , X O X X X . | $$ . X . X O . O O X . | $$ . . . . O 1 2 . O . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------+
[go]$$c $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X X . . . . | $$ , . X , X O X X X . | $$ . X . X O . O O X . | $$ . . . . O 1 2 . O . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------+[/go]
How does black kill after this?
Re: Tsumego from a game.
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 3:05 pm
by Dusk Eagle
Sometimes the simplest move is the easiest to overlook:
$$c $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X X . . . . | $$ , . X , X . X X X . | $$ . X . X O 3 O O X . | $$ . . . . O 1 2 . O . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------+
[go]$$c $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X X . . . . | $$ , . X , X . X X X . | $$ . X . X O 3 O O X . | $$ . . . . O 1 2 . O . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------+[/go]
Re: Tsumego from a game.
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 3:11 pm
by Bill Spight
Dusk Eagle wrote:
Sometimes the simplest move is the easiest to overlook:
$$c $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X X . . . . | $$ , . X , X . X X X . | $$ . X . X O 3 O O X . | $$ . . . . O 1 2 . O . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------+
[go]$$c $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X X . . . . | $$ , . X , X . X X X . | $$ . X . X O 3 O O X . | $$ . . . . O 1 2 . O . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------+[/go]
$$Bc $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X X . . . . | $$ , . X , X 5 X X X . | $$ . X . X O X O O X . | $$ . . . . O X O . O 6 | $$ . . . . . 4 9 7 8 . | $$ --------------------+
[go]$$Bc $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X X . . . . | $$ , . X , X 5 X X X . | $$ . X . X O X O O X . | $$ . . . . O X O . O 6 | $$ . . . . . 4 9 7 8 . | $$ --------------------+[/go]
, a and b are miai for killing.