Life In 19x19

I have a mind to try and create a go database program, something similar to Mastergo or Moyogo, but better. I don't have any real experience with programming yet, but based on what I've read C++ sounds like the best choice for this type of program. I'd be curious about your opinions about this. And yes, I know I'm insane to be so ambitious.

Ummmm...you know the dangers of asking the internet about the best programming language, don't you? It could get very hot in here very soon...

Yes, but I'm not asking for the "best" language... I guess what I'm looking for is a language that would be simple enough to code but also be faster than something like Java and versatile enough to deal with databases and server connections well.

C++ is not a simple language.

What platform are you targeting? I assume it'll have a GUI?

The latter 2 issues you listed (databases, networking) will have similar library support whichever language you choose as long as it's reasonably mainstream. I think platform and tools/libraries are the first things you need to consider.

Since you don't have much programming experience, I suggest Python. It's a very good learning language, and fun to work with.

C++ has its place, but it is much more difficult.

imabuddha wrote:C++ is not a simple language.

No, it isn't. However, there is a learning curve to every programming language.

fwiffo wrote:Since you don't have much programming experience, I suggest Python. It's a very good learning language, and fun to work with.

C++ has its place, but it is much more difficult.

Just a random question, isn't python web-based?

Nagano: You might want to consider PHP, too.

Python isn't web based in the way that PHP or something is. There are web frameworks for it, of course.

schilds wrote:What platform are you targeting? I assume it'll have a GUI?

The latter 2 issues you listed (databases, networking) will have similar library support whichever language you choose as long as it's reasonably mainstream. I think platform and tools/libraries are the first things you need to consider.

I am mostly focused on windows, though I would like it to have as wide a compatibility as possible. Of course it will have a GUI! I'm aware that most languages can support those features, but I read that languages such as Java or Python are slower than C++ and not necessarily as good with data intensive applications. I don't know if its just because many of those applications haven't been coded well, but I've noticed Java applications tend to run slower than most other programs on my computer. I'm talking about very large databases here, think Chessbase (>1 million games). As for the libraries, I don't know enough about the differences to really say. I guess that's one of the areas I could use some help. Question: what was Chessbase written in?

Suji wrote:Nagano: You might want to consider PHP, too.

I want the program to be accessible offline. Is that possible with PHP?

fwiffo wrote:Since you don't have much programming experience, I suggest Python. It's a very good learning language, and fun to work with.

C++ has its place, but it is much more difficult.

Nods to python. Personally I used to be a big C++ programmer but the syntax became laborous. It always ended up feeling more like C.

Nowadays I stick to Java for one reason only; it's the only language that lets me code a mind map (I prefer idea based, top down design).

I think the choice of language should come mainly based on how you are thinking of writing your program. If it's a giant project and you hope to actually finish it, and you're not an extremely experienced programmer, I could only recommend a strongly typed object oriented language. Possibly completely object oriented. I'm trying to stop myself from saying ruby. Maybe Java.

FWIW I never did ever finish anything I ever wrote in C or C++. But I finished everything I tried writing in Java....

php would normally imply some kind of web application served through a browser (php on the server end).

With regards to speed, you're somewhat correct, but it's more a question of what sort of processing you're doing and how much of it. If you're trawling through a million games, disk i/o might end up being the bottleneck, rather than calculations, in which case you could pick a language based on comfort (or whatever).

Do you know what sort of number crunching is involved? Might something like R (http://www.r-project.org/) provide appropriate libraries?

fwiffo wrote:Since you don't have much programming experience, I suggest Python. It's a very good learning language, and fun to work with.

C++ has its place, but it is much more difficult.

Quote For Truth. I program regularly in C++ and python (and some other things) but if you don't know any programming language, I'd say learn python first. Second choice would probably be Java. Yes, python is slower than good C++. But if you actually get the whole thing working and it's just too slow, you can use a python/c api to speed up the critical sections. I doubt that will be your main problem, though.

That said, whatever language you choose, good luck! The best way to learn programming is to have a project you're interested in.

C++ is a quite complex language and has many pitfalls. I'd rather avoid it as a beginner.

I'd use either C# or Java for this project. Java is currently better supported on platforms other than windows and has more libraries in certain areas, and C# is the more powerful language. In particular C# supports custom value types and Linq.

The performance of programs written in either language isn't too bad compared to C++ (they are statically typed and thus easy to compile to efficient code), but they usually use quite a bit more RAM than a comparable C++ program. But that's more relevant if you write a background program running all the time, which isn't the case for you.

You could use a dynamically typed language such as python. They typically create slower programs since it's hard to optimize dynamically typed code. They miss the safety net of static typing, i.e. many errors are only noticed at runtime and not at compiletime which is the reason I personally don't like them much. On the plus side they are more flexible and code written in them is usually a bit shorter.

Performance is C++ > C#/Java > Python&co

Personally I'd recommend C# since you are working on windows and it's powerful and a good compromise between performance and ease of use. With Visual Studio Express you also get a good IDE for free. (If you decide to use Java you probably want to use Eclipse which is free too). It is possible to use C# programs on Linux with the Mono runtime.

And use version control even if you are the only developer. I currently use Git with the SmartGIT GUI and prefer it over Subversion since it's less intrusive and doesn't litter .svn directories everywhere.

If you are developing only for yourself, then it's fine to develop to the platform you are using (although you might kick yourself if you decide to switch later). If you are targeting a wider audience, I see no reason to limit the usage to one platform. Choose an universally available platform (I'd go with Java).

As many have pointed out, C++ is not easy. You may be able to write the program in about the same time, but as you are not an experienced programmer, you will spend at least one order of magnitude more time on debugging and hunting down all those weird errors caused by incorrect pointer arithmetic etc.

e: WRT Java IDEs NetBeans is a good, also free, alternative to Eclipse (and you can use the same IDE for JavaFX, Ruby, PHP, Groovy and C/C++ as well)

nagano wrote:I have a mind to try and create a go database program... I don't have any real experience with programming yet...

You will end with a huge amount of experience.

nagano wrote:something similar to Mastergo or Moyogo

You forget kombilo (python) and libkombilo (c++). Both are open source.

By the way, Moyogo, as Drago, is written in Delphi.