Life In 19x19

Regular readers will recall that we (GoGoD) have often mentioned discrepancies between game records. Internet and printed versions often differ, especially in China, but Korea has quite a few cases, too. very old games often suffer from copying errors. One rather irritating class is games that differ because the two players recorded the game from memory, but pro memories are frankly not quite as good as many adoring fans like to believe. There have been extensive problems in this regard in games played in the many goodwill exchanges between Japan and China. In this case there may not just be very different moves but a totally different result.

But I came across a rather unusual case today thanks to T Mark's eagle eye. Whenever we get new sources, he checks them carefully against our current record. This gives us many updates (extra moves, fuller date, etc) and also the chance to catch the odd error. The one he spotted today was unusual because it was in Japan (normally very reliable with printed records) and the two versions both had 111 moves, but also the two versions differed in orientation, giving a clue to what may have happened.

It was a game between Fujisawa Hideyuki and Hashimoto Shoji in an East-West Japan match. The records end in 111 moves. The Nihon Ki-in source gives the game from Fujisawa's point of view and includes a pair of moves missing from the other version. The Kansai Ki-in source gives the game from the point of view of their man, Hashimoto. It also has a pair of moves missing from the other source.

It seems a reasonable inference, from the different orientations, that the game records possibly came from the players themselves, recorded from memory afterwards (and nothing unsual in that). It also seems unlikely that the two mutually missing exchanges were invented. More likely they were just forgotten, so that the true record (assuming no other errors) should have had 113 moves.

John Fairbairn wrote: (...)
The records end in 111 moves.
The Nihon Ki-in source gives the game from Fujisawa's point of view and includes a pair of moves missing from the other version. The Kansai Ki-in source gives the game from the point of view of their man, Hashimoto. It also has a pair of moves missing from the other source.

It seems a reasonable inference, from the different orientations, that the game records possibly came from the players themselves, recorded from memory afterwards (and nothing unsual in that). It also seems unlikely that the two mutually missing exchanges were invented. More likely they were just forgotten, so that the true record (assuming no other errors) should have had 113 moves.

'The other source'? Is that a 3rd, until now 'official' record?

Should the true record have then 115 moves? (111 + 2 forgotten move pairs)
Where these moves (both) probes?

Tommie wrote:'The other source'? Is that a 3rd, until now 'official' record?

Should the true record have then 115 moves? (111 + 2 forgotten move pairs)
Where these moves (both) probes?

John is referring back to the Nihon Ki-in source.

Both the NK and the KK record have 111 moves. The actual game was 113 moves. Both records therefore omit two moves, but they do not omit the same moves.

Tommie wrote:

John Fairbairn wrote: (...)
The records end in 111 moves.
The Nihon Ki-in source gives the game from Fujisawa's point of view and includes a pair of moves missing from the other version. The Kansai Ki-in source gives the game from the point of view of their man, Hashimoto. It also has a pair of moves missing from the other source.

It seems a reasonable inference, from the different orientations, that the game records possibly came from the players themselves, recorded from memory afterwards (and nothing unsual in that). It also seems unlikely that the two mutually missing exchanges were invented. More likely they were just forgotten, so that the true record (assuming no other errors) should have had 113 moves.

'The other source'? Is that a 3rd, until now 'official' record?

Should the true record have then 115 moves? (111 + 2 forgotten move pairs)
Where these moves (both) probes?

This reminds me of a riddle my great uncle loved:

Two ducks in front of two ducks, two ducks behind two ducks, two ducks between two ducks. How many ducks?