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I tried to kill it all and lost it all

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=2720

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I tried to kill it all and lost it all

Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:43 pm
by emeraldemon
I played black, the comments are in the sgf. I appreciate any advice.

Re: I tried to kill it all and lost it all

Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:12 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
29: It seems biased to the left. I'd have played J4 or K4.
Or maybe C8 is better. Make him decide how he wants to play the lower left corner before you have to decide.

33: I really don't like this. It is gote, but it does not secure your one big territory. It sort of makes territory, and it sort of prevents white's outward expansion of his eastern group, but it does neither well.
I still like C8 or E13.

41: I think your move is better than D18, which leaves too much aji.

43: I'd definitely play C8 here. All of your groups are safe, and you could be threatening C2 - B2 - B4, so suddenly he has three groups to protect.
But regardless, I'd never play a contact move here.

51: K2?

65: R8? I don't know if it works, but it is the vital point here. If there is any move that can work, R8 will be it.

75-79: This is massive aji-keshi. The problem is that you have put all your eggs in one basket.
Back around move 50, white had an invadable group on the right, a pair of heavy stones at C12/D12, a very weak group in the lower middle, and a semi-safe group over in the lower left. That was 3.5 targets.
If you had striven to keep them all weak, and played aggressively, white would have had the which-child-do-I-like-more problem, and sooner or later one or more would have died. But you simplified the game for white, forcing him to strengthen his iffy groups. Now you have only one target, and he knows it.

83: F10?

Re: I tried to kill it all and lost it all

Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:56 pm
by sholvar
JB, what is that about C8, not D8? There is no base possible, right? :scratch:

Re: I tried to kill it all and lost it all

Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 10:46 am
by emeraldemon
I didn't see it in the game, but I think Joaz is suggesting something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 black steals a base
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O X . O , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . 5 . O . . . X . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 6 O . . X . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . 4 3 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: I tried to kill it all and lost it all

Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:48 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
Almost that. This variation is slightly more stable:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 black steals a base
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O X . O , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . 7 8 . . . . . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . 5 . O . . . X . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 6 O . . X . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . 4 3 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


@Sholvar: note that it doesn't work if black is at D8, for then white at 'a'splits black.

Does black need a proper base? I don't think so, given the circumstances. As I mentioned earlier, white has several weak groups, and black has none. If black allows himself one weak group in return for keeping white separated, he should still do well in the ensuing fight.
If, for example, white had played the K4 stone at Q8, it would be a totally different proposition, and then D8 does look better.

Re: I tried to kill it all and lost it all

Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 12:42 pm
by Shaddy
Joaz Banbeck wrote:29: It seems biased to the left. I'd have played J4 or K4.
Or maybe C8 is better. Make him decide how he wants to play the lower left corner before you have to decide.

33: I really don't like this. It is gote, but it does not secure your one big territory. It sort of makes territory, and it sort of prevents white's outward expansion of his eastern group, but it does neither well.
I still like C8 or E13.

41: I think your move is better than D18, which leaves too much aji.

43: I'd definitely play C8 here. All of your groups are safe, and you could be threatening C2 - B2 - B4, so suddenly he has three groups to protect.
But regardless, I'd never play a contact move here.

51: K2?

65: R8? I don't know if it works, but it is the vital point here. If there is any move that can work, R8 will be it.

75-79: This is massive aji-keshi. The problem is that you have put all your eggs in one basket.
Back around move 50, white had an invadable group on the right, a pair of heavy stones at C12/D12, a very weak group in the lower middle, and a semi-safe group over in the lower left. That was 3.5 targets.
If you had striven to keep them all weak, and played aggressively, white would have had the which-child-do-I-like-more problem, and sooner or later one or more would have died. But you simplified the game for white, forcing him to strengthen his iffy groups. Now you have only one target, and he knows it.

83: F10?


I have to disagree with some of these comments. I believe move 29 is completely fine, however k4 without diving into the corner is also good. Move 41 should be D18, which doesn't really leave much aji at all. Also the sequence in the lower left corner that Joaz just described requires that the ladder is good for black- in this case it is, so it's fine to play, but if black doesn't have the ladder it won't work.

Re: I tried to kill it all and lost it all

Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:39 am
by Joaz Banbeck
Shaddy wrote:[... Move 41 should be D18, which doesn't really leave much aji at all.


I was looking at this sequence, in which white may gain an extra liberty at a crucial moment:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc 1 forces 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 O B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 1 O X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O X . O , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |[/go]

...then later, 3 below becomes sente:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O X . O , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |[/go]

...because of this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc 4 fills
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X O O X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 3 X O . O X . O , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |[/go]


Now to put it all in context:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O X . O , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . W . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If white starts going for a moyo like this, being able to lock black in the upper left corner is worth a bunch.

Re: I tried to kill it all and lost it all

Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:45 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
Shaddy is right: the ladder is needed, I just reflexively checked it, and then forgot to mention it. Sorry about that.

It works like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc If white wants to contest the invasion, 4 works if he has the ladder. Then black follows through on the threat to play 5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O X . O , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . 3 . O . . . X . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 5 O . . X . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . 2 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc 1 looks dead, but black needs an approach move.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O X . O , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O a 4 . . . . . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . X 2 O 7 8 . X . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O 3 6 X . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | 1 O X X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now 'a' and 'b' are miai for white to live. If he has the ladder breaker.

Re: I tried to kill it all and lost it all

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:28 am
by Bill Spight
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Common response 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O X . O , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 2 . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . W . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:w2: is a common response, which prevents the sequence threatened and calls to :wc:.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Common response 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O X . O , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . 6 . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . 5 4 . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:w2: is another common response, which creates a weakness at "a" and threatens :w4:.

Re: I tried to kill it all and lost it all

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:25 am
by emeraldemon
So if white protects the bottom, I should be able to make a useful attack on the two upper-left stones, yes?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Hane
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O X . O , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 2 . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: I tried to kill it all and lost it all

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:36 am
by Shaddy
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Shaddy wrote:[... Move 41 should be D18, which doesn't really leave much aji at all.


I was looking at this sequence, in which white may gain an extra liberty at a crucial moment:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc 1 forces 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 O B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 1 O X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O X . O , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |[/go]

...then later, 3 below becomes sente:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O X . O , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |[/go]

...because of this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc 4 fills
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X O O X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 3 X O . O X . O , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |[/go]


Now to put it all in context:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O X . O , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . W . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If white starts going for a moyo like this, being able to lock black in the upper left corner is worth a bunch.


Here is my logic: Black does not need to try to push out in the second diagram- so while white does seal black in, it will be gote. And white can already seal black in gote, with f13 or something along those lines. So to play b18 constitutes a loss of some number of points in exchange for being sealed in slightly less forcefully. How many points? Counting in diagram three, we see that extending to f18 is 11 points sente, and if black had haned at b18 this would not be available, so we lose at least that many. (white would also have the chance to extend the c18 stone away, so it's more than 11). Is the difference between the two seals really 11 points?
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