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Intermediate Level, Opening 200, #20
Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:17 am
by Nostromo
Gochild problems, Intermediate Level, Opening 200, #20: the answer given is: Black plays at H4. But it seems to me that White can get a good result by playing G4. Then if Black blocks at G5, White can cut at H5. As Black, I would have considered H5 instead of H4.
I'm not saying the problem is wrong, I am a weak player (5k). But some explanation would be helpful.
Re: Intermediate Level, Opening 200, #20
Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:41 am
by Li Kao
Can you post the problem here?
Re: Intermediate Level, Opening 200, #20
Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:53 am
by daal
$$c Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X , . X . . . , . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X , . X . . . , . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Here's the position. Black's choices are extending from the shimari at the top, taking the bottom left corner, or H4. Of the three choices, H4 seems best because it is a pivot point of two moyos. H5 however also looks better to me...
P.S. Speaking of GoChild, does anyone know what "dong-dong grouping" means?
Re: Intermediate Level, Opening 200, #20
Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:04 am
by topazg
White is pretty hard pushed to cut here:
$$c Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 3 4 . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X , . X 2 1 6 , . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O 7 O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 8 9 . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 3 4 . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X , . X 2 1 6 , . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O 7 O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 8 9 . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Re: Intermediate Level, Opening 200, #20
Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:18 am
by judicata
topazg wrote:White is pretty hard pushed to cut here:
topazg - would that analysis change if the significant reduction wasn't available in the lower right, as below? On second thought, maybe it wouldn't--black is getting quite a bit out of this exchange even without the possible reduction on the bottom.
$$c Alternative Problem
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 3 4 . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X , . X 2 1 6 , . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O 7 O . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 8 9 . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Alternative Problem
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 3 4 . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X , . X 2 1 6 , . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O 7 O . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 8 9 . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
[/quote]
Re: Intermediate Level, Opening 200, #20
Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:12 pm
by Bill Spight
Here is a game featuring that move.
(;SZ[19]FF[3]
PW[Segoe Kensaku]
WR[7d]
PB[Kitani Minoru]
BR[5d]
EV[Oteai]
RO[Spring Session, Round 7]
DT[1930-04-16,17]
PC[Nihon Ki-in]
TM[12h]
KM[0]
OH[-B-]
RE[B+6]
US[GoGoD95]
;B[qd];W[dd];B[pq];W[oc];B[pe];W[dq];B[nd];W[mc];B[ld];W[lb];B[jd];W[qc]
;B[rc];W[pc];B[re];W[pn];B[pk];W[qq];B[qr];W[pp];B[op];W[qp];B[or];W[oo]
;B[np];W[md];B[me];W[le];B[ne];W[lf];B[lc];W[mb];B[jc];W[jf];B[gd];W[rb]
;B[sb];W[ra];B[mh];W[no];B[mp];W[oj];B[pj];W[oi];B[pi];W[ng];B[ph];W[of]
;B[oe];W[mj];B[gf];W[dg];B[mg];W[jh];B[mi];W[lj];B[gh];W[ec];B[fb];W[he]
;B[if];W[hf];B[ie];W[hg];B[ig];W[hh];B[ih];W[hi];B[ii];W[hd];B[ji];W[ki]
;B[kh];W[ok];B[cc];W[cd];B[fc];W[lh];B[jg];W[ge];B[fe];W[hb];B[dc];W[ed]
;B[eb];W[fd];B[bd];W[be];B[bc];W[cn];B[pl];W[ol];B[hq];W[en];B[bf];W[cf]
;B[ae];W[ch];B[ce];W[de];B[gl];W[hp];B[ip];W[io];B[iq];W[ik];B[gn];W[gp]
;B[ho];W[jo];B[fo];W[gq];B[dp];W[cq];B[im];W[kj];B[lg];W[kq];B[hj];W[gj]
;B[hk];W[go];B[fn];W[hn];B[em];W[hm];B[ej];W[gi];B[dn];W[cm];B[cp];W[el]
;B[fl];W[ek];B[fk];W[ck];B[fj];W[gm];B[fm];W[hl];B[ij];W[ep];B[fp];W[fq]
;B[eh];W[di];B[eo];W[eq];B[co];W[bg];B[kr];W[lq];B[lr];W[mr];B[kp];W[jr]
;B[lp];W[ls];B[jp];W[nr];B[rq];W[rp];B[ns];W[hr];B[rr];W[oh];B[ir];W[is]
;B[pm];W[om];B[qn];W[rn];B[rm];W[qo];B[dj];W[cj];B[bi];W[bh];B[bq];W[br]
;B[ci];W[bj];B[ef];W[df];B[qm];W[ln];B[jk];W[il];B[jj];W[sm];B[sl];W[sn]
;B[sp];W[ro];B[rl];W[bp];B[bo];W[aq];B[bn];W[bm];B[eg];W[gc];B[dh];W[ai]
;B[gg];W[km];B[kb];W[be];B[jq];W[ks];B[ce];W[ee];B[ff];W[be];B[nc];W[nb]
;B[ce];W[ei];B[fi];W[ci];B[fh];W[be];B[gr];W[hs];B[ce];W[os];B[ps];W[be]
;B[kr];W[lr];B[ce];W[pg];B[qg];W[be];B[gs];W[js];B[ce];W[am];B[be];W[nf]
;B[mf];W[pf];B[qf];W[la];B[gb];W[ga];B[kk];W[lk];B[kn];W[ko];B[lm];W[mm]
;B[jm];W[kl];B[jl];W[jn];B[ib];W[fa];B[db];W[ka];B[ic];W[hc];B[ia];W[ha]
;B[ja];W[ea];B[da];W[nh];B[mo];W[mn];B[in];W[ho];B[ni];W[nj];B[dl];W[dk]
;B[dm];W[cl];B[li];W[ao];B[ag]
)
Re: Intermediate Level, Opening 200, #20
Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:19 pm
by topazg
judicata wrote:topazg - would that analysis change if the significant reduction wasn't available in the lower right, as below? On second thought, maybe it wouldn't--black is getting quite a bit out of this exchange even without the possible reduction on the bottom.
My gut feeling is Black should now get the whole lower left corner, as well as having expanded his framework somewhat. It feels like a bit of a windfall to me - White will be hard pressed to make up for the loss in the lower left corner. Caveated by my strength anyway
Re: Intermediate Level, Opening 200, #20
Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:41 pm
by xops
daal wrote:P.S. Speaking of GoChild, does anyone know what "dong-dong grouping" means?
Dong-dong is a children go school in Taiwan, run by Zhou Keping 5p.
It seems professionals are helping GoChild as shown below.
GoChild wrote:Appreciate
Dong-dong children Go schoolIn order to reveal vast questions to users of GoChild, we have tried to re-group lots of packs.
Grouping is based on difficulty, from easy to hard with 10 levels. Due to large number of questions, our grouping is not perfect. Please use label function and create customize group for your convenience.
We would like to thank all contributors again. Without their hard work, there won't be so many questions for us to practice.