Life In 19x19

I like the 3-4 point as black. Possible follow-ups include the Korean, the Kobayashi, the Shusaku, and certain tasukis, or White can approach immediately, and I'd be happy with any of those options. I like the 4-4 too, and sometimes the 3-3, particularly as White. But I like the stability and balance of the 3-4: more territorial and safer than the 4-4, but more aggressive and more favorable to moyo-building than the 3-3.

This is what I tend to do in "normal" games against a 3-4. Then I normally approach high (although I intend on approaching low this time to be different). Sente for the last corner is important too obviously.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . b , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Recently I've been very much into playing "B" as a response to this hoshi. The hoshi tells me that White is interested in approaching soon, so I may as well just prevent that. (John Fairbairn wrote that this used to be fairly common, so since then I've been experimenting with it.) Usually White then plays near D (specifically, either the hoshi or R4 usually), and then Black plays in the last corner.

Some players ignore this sort-of-approach and just play in C for a tasuki, or at D, which can lead to a smaller variation of the Orthadox, or a modified Shusaku. Either would be fine, but I'm pretty sure that White will approach immediately if I do either of those, and then just continue attacking if I took the last corner. I think I should only play D if I'm OK with letting my first move get pincered.

The problem with playing an enclosure and letting White make a tasuki is that the follow-up is often like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . 3 , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And after that White 6 I'm never quite sure what to do, because White has a nice structure right where I want influence. I'm never sure if I should try to contest that structure right away, such as by approaching the lower-right hoshi or even extending from the shimari up top, or if I just ignore. If I ignore, sometimes later in the game I'm placed in the awkward position of needing to play at point "A" in the first diagram, if I've let White approach too close on both sides.

This is my current favorite move in this position, so I may as well play it. It's a little more complicated than the small knight's shimari, because it's not fully settled yet, and I'll have to take that into account in the fighting that follows. But I feel like it throws its influence a little farther in both directions than the small knight's.

You want the right? Not on my watch!

5-4 are aiming to develop the side that they are on the 4th line of (in fact, that's true for most opening moves), so this attempts to disrupt Black's plans a bit. The choice of Black's in the lower left will be very important with respect to White's strategy going forward.

I like E3 next, myself.


Edit: E3, not E5, though to be fair E5 looks fun too.

Nice and simple, as (a) and (b) are miai for B:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Interesting! I was expecting a hoshi in that corner.

This reminds me of two Shuei games:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 5 , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . 0 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . 8 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In this one, the 5-4 was played after Black had already played a komoku, so Black kind of had to make the best of a bad situation.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . 3 , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black plays an approach before taking the last corner, for sente. Of course that lets White wedge, and the rest of the game is a fighting game.

If I were to take the last corner, I would either play hoshi or e3, the former because it's an influential stone to counter White's influential stones, the latter because its influence is pointing towards the weak side of White 4.

I've been trying to read out what might happen if I followed Black and approached. If I ignore a pincer, I'll then have to either live under or just leave the stone for aji. If White ignores and takes the corner, pretty much everything I play after would be an invasion:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c If White pincers:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 9 7 1 . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 0 O 5 4 8 . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'd live, probably in gote, but White would get a huge wall facing the weak side of my stone.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c If White ignores: ideal development from a double approach
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . O X . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

At this point I would have sente and would be able to fix one of my two weak groups. Whichever one I help, I'll still be leaving a weak group on the board, and White will either be able to attack it or ignore and play Q3.

Which brings me back to D4 and E3. But I'm not sure how either of those would play out.

Shuei was white in both those games, eh?

Yes. Shuei was white in both games, and Kuroda Shunsetsu was black in both games. Shuei is ahead by about 10 points where the record leaves off in the first game, but resigned the second after he invades the lower side and dies. In the second, Black's shimari, approach stone, and approach to the 5-3 all become small but strong groups. However, I'm thinking that Topaz wouldn't let me either peacefully make a small group approaching the 5-4 or let me approach the top and then make it live after playing elsewhere.

John Fairbairn discussed White 2 and Black 3 in the "White 8 is bad" thread:
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2877&p=47134#p47134

I'm not entirely sure of this, but I have these 2 joseki in mind:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . , 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

For the second joseki, if w blocks on the other side, I'll simply sacrifice a stone:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . 4 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . 5 2 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 3 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There is the possibility that w will opt to cut rather than play out the keima press:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 . 2 5 7 . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 1 3 4 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In which case there will be a fight, and I'm pretty sure I'd be able to get something out of it.

Of course there's always the uncomfortable possibility that you'll just take the big side points:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But if that happens, it means that this will be a solid territory vs. loose moyo game, and I can handle that too.

I'm not entirely happy with this. I still think that the 4-4 point is a good option in this context-- it's a good strong stone that is happy even if I tenuki from it, and its influence might help counter the influence of both of the white corner stones. I also considered the 4-5 point for a long time, which would aim at the weak side of white's 4-5 more strongly than the 3-5 would. But I decided I don't like fourth-line stones-- I wanted a little of the stability that a third-line stone goes for.

Mark356 wrote:it means that this will be a solid territory vs. loose moyo game

Common misconception. There's no solid territory in the last variation.
I've had many games where the lower left B shimari became W's territory later on in the game.