Life In 19x19

I think it should stop. I understand the good intentions, but this is the kind of power you see on really public websites with loads of bad posters, not on a small community site like this. No matter how bad a post is, it should be just editted out, with a mod comment, rather than removed with absolutely no trace. Not only is it an annoyance when you are trying to locate posts, it gives of the really bad taste of censorship and the idea that anything on the forum can be fabricated.

Does anyone else feel this way?

I hate that too. And editing a post, without indication that it was edited is just as bad.

We had a discussion recently:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2943

Aphelion wrote:I think it should stop...

Have you a particular example in mind?

It depends. If there is a message that is clearly just spam (or a total abuse etc), IMNSHO it can be deleted without a trace. In other cases editing should be preferred to deleting, and the edit should be marked.

What tj said.

We've always been at war with Eastasia.

Is this currently happening? I think the current policy is to edit a post (including signing the edit and giving an explanation). The exception is robo-spam which is generally just deleted.

I'm going to speculate that the post in question is a comment Joaz made in the Araban vs Magicwand game that is quoted but appears to be not there?

topazg wrote:I'm going to speculate that the post in question is a comment Joaz made in the Araban vs Magicwand game that is quoted but appears to be not there?

If so, that wasn't modding. I deleted my own post, as any member can do - without mod access.

So, in the interest of addressing a potentially valid complaint satisfactorily, is this the post you are referring to Aphelion, or another one? If it is this one, do the following summarise the problem reasonably:

1) a poster removed a post that had been quoted elsewhere (in this case unfavourably, which I suspect magnified the unhappiness behind this thread)
2) this is a general bit of a breach of normal forum etiquette (due to lack of continuity, particularly when someone else has already quoted it)
3) coming from a mod or admin, this is deemed to be a worse breach than it would for normal users

If so, what's the resolution? As Joaz says, anyone can do this. Do we make it so no-one can delete their own posts? Or do we just put this down to a lack of understanding that this is "not a generally done thing", an understanding that people can be easily annoyed by it (and therefore try not to repeat it), and move on?

IMO, people should be able to delete their own posts, admin or not. Spam should be handled by moderators.

Inappropriate messages should not be deleted or edited by a mod, but the user should be warned by a mod. The mod could suggest that the user edit his/her post, even. If any modification is made to the message, perhaps text can simply be appended to the message, indicating that the user was warned.

Some people might think that my preference is too liberal.

In that case, an alternative solution could be:
* Instead of deleting or editing a message, the user can be warned. In the meantime, the mod can put the message in the HIDE tags, providing a message saying that the user was given a warning for that text.

This way, people can still view the message, but can choose not to if an admin edited the post to hide it.

topazg wrote:So, in the interest of addressing a potentially valid complaint satisfactorily, is this the post you are referring to Aphelion, or another one? If it is this one, do the following summarise the problem reasonably:

1) a poster removed a post that had been quoted elsewhere (in this case unfavourably, which I suspect magnified the unhappiness behind this thread)
2) this is a general bit of a breach of normal forum etiquette (due to lack of continuity, particularly when someone else has already quoted it)
3) coming from a mod or admin, this is deemed to be a worse breach than it would for normal users

If so, what's the resolution? As Joaz says, anyone can do this. Do we make it so no-one can delete their own posts? Or do we just put this down to a lack of understanding that this is "not a generally done thing", an understanding that people can be easily annoyed by it (and therefore try not to repeat it), and move on?

I will not comment on the resolution, particularly prior to comfirmation that this was the issue.

I do not agree with number 3) above - I do not think self deletion of the post by a moderator it is a worse breach than if someone else does it. I commend anyone who, on reflection, decides that he does not want words he regrets, or that are not important enough to inflame others, to remain.

I think moderators should try to stay above, or at least out of, the fray, and I think questionable posts by moderators are worse than questionable posts by "mere mortals".

But again, the error is not in the removal.

(by the way, if this is the instance (Joaz/MW)I could not glean enough info from what remains to have an opinion on post itself - the only opinion that matters is Joaz's since it was his post and it is now gone)

Horibe wrote:
(by the way, if this is the instance (Joaz/MW)I could not glean enough info from what remains to have an opinion on post itself - the only opinion that matters is Joaz's since it was his post and it is now gone)

The observers were having an involved hidden conversation on something that had nothing to do with the game (which always makes the players wonder what the observers see), Joaz "accidentally" let slip that someone had posted an 86-move sequence, Ketchup had a hissy fit.

topazg wrote:So, in the interest of addressing a potentially valid complaint satisfactorily, is this the post you are referring to Aphelion, or another one? If it is this one, do the following summarise the problem reasonably:

1) a poster removed a post that had been quoted elsewhere (in this case unfavourably, which I suspect magnified the unhappiness behind this thread)
2) this is a general bit of a breach of normal forum etiquette (due to lack of continuity, particularly when someone else has already quoted it)
3) coming from a mod or admin, this is deemed to be a worse breach than it would for normal users

If so, what's the resolution? As Joaz says, anyone can do this. Do we make it so no-one can delete their own posts? Or do we just put this down to a lack of understanding that this is "not a generally done thing", an understanding that people can be easily annoyed by it (and therefore try not to repeat it), and move on?

Yea, my post was sparked by Joaz's removal (I didnt' realize normal users could do that too), but now that I realize it had nothing to do with mod access I'm just as unhappy that this is a feature at all. I also feel that in general, mods are too willing to 'prune' this forum. (This isn't to say that I think the mods are in general, doing a great job)

Reasons 1 and 2 are my problems with that removal. In addition I think that removing a post is extremely drastic, even for spam. An internet forum is different from other social communication is that there is absolutely nothing to use as a reference besides the text on the forum. There's an element of trust involved here that the forum will preserve the history of us posting here, that threads won't be just washed away like so much sandcastle.

I may be overreacting here, and I agree that this isn't a big hinderance to the general forum experience, but I haven't read a single convincing reason why we need these kind of outright post deletions. Threads can be closed, and moved to a closed section of the forum. If a thread has strayed, it can be closed with a link to a new thread. If a post is over the line, it can be edited (possibly put in hide tags or just delete the contents) - but WITH a clear indication what was done. Users can be banned. But I find the idea that we can edit threads to the point of completely hiding something really uncomfortable. The most important thing here is that changes are transparent to the end user, that there is a placeholder, an indication that a 'event' has transpired. Can some one explain to me the advantage of completely deleting a post, instead of just editing it out with a mod warning? Or for a user to be allowed to totally delete his post instead of just saying 'edit, my bad?' This preserves both continuity and allows sensible filtering of content. Again, if there's a reason why my proposed solution is inferior, please explain to me and we can debate it.

Someone is watching you.