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Trouble making shape in large framework

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=3289

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Trouble making shape in large framework

Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:49 pm
by Tangerine
I (white) played this game with fwiffo (black), another forum member. We would both appreciate any helpful comments.

Although I think I was doing well until I made a reading mistake that caused me to resign, I was not very happy with the amount of effort it took to make a stable shape in the center. He was very thick, but there was a lot of open space. Perhaps if I made better shape, I wouldn't have been pressed into a reading blunder.

Or maybe I let him have too much thickness early on, and I was too greedy considering that?

Thanks for taking a look!

Re: Trouble making shape in large framework

Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:57 pm
by fwiffo
And as for my questions regarding this game... I prefer to play a territorial style, but often fail to do so and end up with a game like this with a bunch of influence early in the game and don't know what to do with it. I'm always feel like I'm doing it wrong... I felt unsatisfied with how I was using influence in this game, even though my blind squirrel eventually did find a nut.

Re: Trouble making shape in large framework

Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:27 pm
by Loons
Just my 2 bits:

I dislike your joseki choice at 14 on this board. I would jump (E14), into that family of joseki. Maybe if you don't like those joseki, a double approach variation seems perhaps better than diving into the corner directly.

Relatedly, there does not seem to be a well-functioning pincer for move 24. Black seems to get a satisfying result whatever happens.

At move 30, I think c7 is worth more to you dead than alive. If you simply jump out to f10, black is split on the left and the result seems ok for white. The result as played to 41 it appears black`s thickness is well superior.

Trivially, I think G18 is often G17 followed by black H16, white tenuki (though yours might be better or ok on the board). The game already seems hard for white. Also, O16 I think may not be so good a move when you really, really don`t want to take the corner - it feels like the two white stones are hurting eachother.

Fwiffo, I think you played quite a good game, though I have not looked past move 50 (our ranks are too close for me to really comment whatever fighting happens).

Edit: Fwiffo, you were too kind to white in the top right. Then you both made mistakes. I like the quote "In kyu games, it's not who made the most mistakes but who made the last mistake".

Re: Trouble making shape in large framework

Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:51 pm
by Shaddy
Some general statements first. Black is ridiculously thick in the center in this game- it will be hard for white to make shape, because the stones which need to do this have almost no shape to begin with. Also there's not much black around to get forcing moves off of, which is where a lot of shape comes from - exploiting your opponent's weaknesses rather than making yourself strong. You might think of white's situation as drowning in a lake- if black gently keeps him down, white is dead in the water, but if you try too hard you might end up giving him enough leverage to escape. I like black's result on the left in the beginning - seems too good, too much influence.

And a note that I forgot to put int the sgf: at move 89 or so, black should take the ponnuki instead of connecting two stones, because then he can jump into the bottom and ruin a lot of it.

Re: Trouble making shape in large framework

Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:29 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
With apologies to Shaddy, I disagree with some of his comments...

Re: Trouble making shape in large framework

Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:43 pm
by Tangerine
Thanks so much for all of your comments!

Re: Trouble making shape in large framework

Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:54 pm
by Dusk Eagle
I wanted to analyze the hane on the right side, but the variations were long so I ended up making an sgf, and then reviewing a bit of the game. Not sure how helpful my comments are here, but hopefully you can compare them with your own ideas and judge which is better.

Re: Trouble making shape in large framework

Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:46 am
by Bill Spight
Some thoughts. :)

Re: Trouble making shape in large framework

Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:33 am
by Shaddy
hmm, i shouldn't post comments when i'm dead tired. Joaz is right for the most part but I still believe hane is wrong there (and reading Bill's comment, he agrees)

Re: Trouble making shape in large framework

Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:43 am
by Magicwand
i also agree with shaddy and bill.
there is no reason to make that complicated because black will gain more than enough points by playing solid.

Re: Trouble making shape in large framework

Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:41 am
by Bill Spight
Magicwand wrote:i also agree with shaddy and bill.
there is no reason to make that complicated because black will gain more than enough points by playing solid.


As DuskEagle's variations suggest, if White cuts Black cannot afford to atari from the top. :)
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