Life In 19x19

This game I played against a stronger player on a real go board. Later I translated it into SGF using qgo and added some question. I lost by resignation. As you know, my comments on other people's games aren't very good. So I hope I can improve. I will gladly listen to all that you guys have to say. Thank you.

8: Second line to a 4-3 point...not very big, because there is no big follow up. C18 is not very big for you. If everything were one line lower, it would be better because C17 would be a great point to get if black ignored you. I'm not sure what is best, but C11 is the normal sort of shape and it seems okay here.

9: Black's move is quite slow, I'm not sure what is best still, but maybe he can pincer your low group and try to force white to make him protect.

12: Your move is good. M3, O3 and H3 are all fine too, with slightly different intentions behind them. It is most important to be consistent, and with your plan that seems to be what you intend.

14: Seems quite small. The corner is no really threatened from this direction, and because you were not very aggressive with N3 you can't attack very strongly later. I think D6 is perhaps a better idea, if you want to play here, inviting black to invade and be split.

15: Yes, this move is very slow and not great.

16: Black can indeed take the corner now, but that is not on its own a good reason to protect it. If you are worried about black taking the corner so easily, you should perhaps reconsider using the 4-4 point in the first place. I think it is maybe a better way to play to take R10 now, which is a great dual purpose move - it limits black's shimari in the top right, and makes the beginnings of a small framework with your lower right. If black takes the corner, it is well placed to work with the wall that white will get.

17: This is an obvious idea for black, but I think it's a bit close. If you play R10 now, black is annoyed becasue the R8 stone does not have a good extension.

18: Feels like a 'where to invade...the middle!' move. Did you have a good reason for playing this particular point? If not, you must be wary because black will maybe just ignore you because your invasion is not important. I think a better way to play here is perhaps S16 straight away, as a probe (which you did in a couple of moves), which might help you choose a specific invasion point. R15 has a similar idea behind it. There are also other options, if you want to do somethign else entirely, I think.

22: Good point to play, bad timing. The shape black has made is pushing from behind, he really wants you to hane at the head of his two stones. Q11 is massive (or Q12 for black), and you really want to get there first and beat him into submission! For this reason, black S11 is bad because it forces white to get strong and attack him.

24: Not usually a great continuation, it is more interseting to play R15 and take some forcing moves on the outside, unless you really want to live locally and think you can. Living locally is very bad if you get sealed in, and giving black Q12 feels bad.

26: Good point, but Q11 is still better

28: Not a bad plan (Q11 is still bigger, though!). However, all your stones on that side are very low, so making a framework is not obviously a fantastic idea as it doesn't exactly develop naturally. I'm not sure what is best, but moves like K17 seem annoying for black. Something like D9 might be good as well, but I'm not sure what's best on the side, and the differences between the available moves are not the most important thing for you to take from the game.

30: D4 seems maybe a bit better. I don't think black can push through easily if you play there.

I will stop commenting here. There are many other things to improve on, but I think the things mentioned are a good start.

Thank you very much for your comments, Amnal. Umm... Question. From your comments, I get the feeling that the wall wasn't the total disaster that I thought it was. Or that my game was as outlandishly bad as I may have been led to believe.

Is this just wishful thinking?

:edit:

Well, nevermind. I can still improve.

On move 38: When you have a stone on the third line or higher - particularly on the third line - and he can capture it, it often is good style to sacrifice one more stone.

The logic is thus:

In the first diagram, the doomed stone has one liberty. It may be a troublesome stone for black, because in conjunction with th circled white stones, it splits black. So he may have to capture it sometime. Doing so is fairly easy for it only has one liberty. Black has to use one move to kill it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]Wc
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . .
$$ | . C O X . . . .
$$ | . . X W W . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

But in the second diagram, it now has three liberties. So black must play three moves to kill it. White invests one move, and black has to reply with two more moves than he would have otherwise. That is a net profit of one move for white.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . C X . . . . .
$$ | C 1 O X . . . .
$$ | . C X W W . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

At your level, a move in the mid game is worth maybe 10 points. So sacrificing one stone to gain an extra move is worth about 9 points for you.

A few ideas :

Thank you edlee for your variations. And thank you joanz, too.

oso wrote:... Question. From your comments, I get the feeling that the wall wasn't the total disaster that I thought it was. ...

Your wall was good. It was probably worth the territory that you conceded to black in return. It may look like it was a bad idea because you did not get to much from it. All you have to do is change how you use walls.

As a general rule, walls are not used to make territory. Too often as beginners we look at our wall, and see part of the perimeter for territory. Then we try to create the rest of the perimeter. This turns out to be very inefficient.

Walls are better used for attacking. If you have a wall, the best way to use it is to make sure that you opponent's groups near the wall are attackable. Theis means that you either:
1) weaken the groups that are near the wall, or
2) outline an excessively large territory using the wall such that he must start a group that you can attack, or
3) find a group someplace else that you can chase toward the wall.

As an example, let's start with a wall like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If he has a group nearby, like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Example 1: Weaken nearby groups.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X . . X . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...you weaken it like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Example 1: Weaken nearby groups.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . 8 . 9 . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . 4 , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X . 3 X 6 . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . 2 1 . 5 7 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Note that killing the group is not always neccesary. You can often make your profit elsewhere by chasing it:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Example 1: Weaken nearby groups.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . 4 . . . X . 1 ? ? ? O ? ? |
$$ | . . X O . . . . X , . . . ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | . . X O . . X 2 O X X . O ? ? O ? ? ? |
$$ | . . X O . . O O 3 O O . ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It lives with trivial territory, while you score big in the shaded area.


Then there are the instances in which there is no enemy group nearby. In such an instance, you get greedy, like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Example 2: Induce the creation of a weak group
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This leaves the opponent with the choice of letting you have huge chunks of territory, or invading. When he invades, you attack:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Example 2: Induce the creation of a weak group
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . 9 7 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . 0 . 6 3 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . 8 . . 2 4 5 . 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...and it transforms into a variation of the example above in which you eventually kill or take your profit over in the lower right corner.


The third way to use a wall is to start the weak group someplace else - sometimes even on the other side of the board - and run it into your wall:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Example 3: Chase a weak group toward the wall
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . 6 . 4 . 2 . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . 9 . 7 . 5 . 3 . 1 . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . 8 . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . 0 . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In the above diagram, black has invested 5 stones and he has a group that is too big to lose. But it has no territory, no eyes, and if it keeps going like this it will run into the wall.

That explains quite a bit, actually. So, since there weren't that many weak groups in my game, I should have gotten greedy and forced him to invade?

Thank you, Joanz.

Urm... on a side note, what happens when you have to strong walls facing each other and a weak group in the middle? Like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$---------------------
$$|...................|
$$|...................|
$$|...................|
$$|...,.....,.....,...|
$$|...................|
$$|...................|
$$|...................|
$$|...................|
$$|...................|
$$|...................|
$$|...,.....,.....,...|
$$|...X...............|
$$|...X........O......|
$$|...X........O......|
$$|...X...1....O......|
$$|...X.....2..O......|
$$|...,.....,.....,...|
$$|....X.......O......|
$$|...................|
$$---------------------[/go]

[/go]

oso wrote:That explains quite a bit, actually. So, since there weren't that many weak groups in my game, I should have gotten greedy and forced him to invade?

Thank you, Joanz.

Urm... on a side note, what happens when you have to strong walls facing each other and a weak group in the middle? Like this:

$$W
$$---------------------
$$|...................|
$$|...................|
$$|...................|
$$|...,.....,.....,...|
$$|...................|
$$|...................|
$$|...................|
$$|...................|
$$|...................|
$$|...................|
$$|...,.....,.....,...|
$$|...X...............|
$$|...X........O......|
$$|...X........O......|
$$|...X...1....O......|
$$|...X.....2..O......|
$$|...,...3a,.....,...|
$$|....X.......O......|
$$|...................|
$$---------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$---------------------
$$|...................|
$$|...................|
$$|...................|
$$|...,.....,.....,...|
$$|...................|
$$|...................|
$$|...................|
$$|...................|
$$|...................|
$$|...................|
$$|...,.....,.....,...|
$$|...X...............|
$$|...X........O......|
$$|...X........O......|
$$|...X...1....O......|
$$|...X.....2..O......|
$$|...,...3a,.....,...|
$$|....X.......O......|
$$|...................|
$$---------------------[/go]

[/go]

Those walls basically cancel each other out. The space in the middle is not worth very much, though a move around a will eventually be a big endgame move (considering only the local area). If either player plays in the middle, the other player plays above or below that stone (or potentially just ignores it), and the first player hasn't actually gained many points.

Your two given moves are strange. White 1 is quite small because, as stated, there isn't much territory between the walls anyway. Black's response is strange becasue it invites white 3 (which I have added). Black can probably easily run out, but he's made a stone that can be attacked for no benefit.

A lot of this stuff is quite dependent upon the surrounding conditions. If you have a situation from a real game, it would bea good idea to post asking for comments on that, because then the position is not so contrived and is likely more meaningful.

Ah! Got it, amnal. Very helpful.

I hesitated to put the following sgf I recently played(It's more recent than the first post, however.) I know it's not good form to clutter a forum with a bunch of games that you've played. So I decided to post it in this thread and just let anyone who comments be appreciated. Thank you.



Oh noes! I'm out of time!

Posting multiple games is fine, I don't think it would be overboard to post another thread now if you've been trying to fix the mistakes from your previously commented game.

6: This is not very common. Black would really like to play Q5 or R5 to finish his corner shape, which is what this move forces him to play. He is very happy that you want him to make good shape! It is easier and much more normal to play Q5 or R5 yourself.

10: A good idea, but thinking too hard. Black P17 is bad because he cannot attack the O17 stone if you just play O16 - so he has made you strong with one of his moves! White will find it easiest to just be happy that black wants to help. Your move invites black O16, after which the O17 stone is wasted - you turn black's bad move into a good move by letting him get another one.

16: Double approaching this corner is certainly a good idea, but black is not too concentrated on the right side if he gets another move at maybe Q11. If the Q14 group spends time living, black will make strength to attack the O3 stone. It is good to get around the board, but you are saving up pain for yourself, not leaving light groups around.

18: Being worried of a counterattack is good, but don't be too worried. Go is a game of trades and agreement, you can't expect to get everything and playing to do so will often lead to failure. That said, your move is not bad, though F16 is the easiest way to play.

19: I don't think he is a little behind, and this move doesn't 'jump in' to anything

36: Now is normally a good time to punish black for tenukiing from D7. Pushing at C5 and haneing at C8 seems unlikely to go badly for you - tand counts as a leaning attack on the F3 group. That said, your move is big and strong.

38: He can ignore the aji, I think your move is not sente, but it has big followup moves if he does so. I think this move is bad because it is a bad time for it now - black J3 will make the F3 group strong and he will have lived very easily from his weak group. J3 seems like a good move, leaving black the problem of his cutting points, and threatning G4 if necessary to eat a couple of stones (though this is small for now).

40: Good, though J3 seems safer.

42: Seems bad, black J3 maybe just lives for him now (though white does profit if so). If you had played J3 instead, this move would be fine as black couldn't cut and make good shape.

56: A funny shape. If you are worried about the C15 connetction, C12 looks like a better shape. This way, black C12 causes you some problems - black can try to cut the knight's move.

58: I think this is okay. H17 would not be terrible either.

66: It is quite cunning to take away his base like this, but perhaps a little optimistic. Black C18, white E18 leaves black sente to play and easily make a centre eye - which will also activate the aji of the C12 cut, or even E10 cut.


81: 'Chasing really hard' is okay, but why are you chasing it, and to where? Black has an eye at G14, and can make a second eye with C18 easily. He also can play C12 and E10 to try and cut white up, and it seems like it will work. You are right in your earlier comment, I suppose - you are too eager to kill and have forgotten that your own stones can all too easily die.

Yeah, I got greedy. It's amazing how quickly a good position can deteriorate when a person loses their stability.

Amnal, you really know your stuff. I get the feeling that it took you quite a bit of training to get to where you are today, and that just makes me even more determined to get stronger. Thanks for your comments. I'm glad to have the opportunity to improve!

A few ideas. Note your shape problems at moves 10 and near 72:

oso wrote:... I know it's not good form to clutter a forum with a bunch of games that you've played. So I decided to post it in this thread...

[admin]
It's perfectly ok to create multiple threads for multiple games. Indeed, I'd recommend doing it that way. If you just add to a thread, some people will see that you have added to a thread that they have already commmented on, and they might not bother to look at it. Whereas if you start a new thread, they will know that it is a new game that they haven't commented on.

There is no hard rule about how many that you can post. As long as you are learning from the responses and not making the same mistakes repeatedly, then you are using the forum as intended, even if you posted a game every day.
[/admin]

Ok. Thanks for the vars, EdLee. I seem to miss a lot of tesujis, or my fighting is pretty weak I think ill work on my reading before posting another game. Thank you!