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A few questions from my first 19x19 KGS game
Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:01 pm
by Xai
Hello!
I have been a long time lurker of go discussions and now this site and I appreciate everything you guys/girls post about Go. I'm a beginner who has mostly played 9x9 and 13x13 games a few times a week with a good friend I recruited at work. We are both beginners. Now on to the point...
I took the plunge and played my first 19x19 game ever (over board or online) on KGS. Instead of asking for a full game review because the responses would be too much to take it all in, I would like to ask about some particular moves that threw me during the game. I played White.
Move 144-155ish: Black invaded on 143 and ended up making a living shape in my corner. How should I have better reacted to this invasion?
Move 164: Same thing here, I got invaded but this time ended up killing black's shape. I probably got lucky, how should I approach invasions like this?
Move 14: I invaded on move 12 to try to break up the bottom of the board. The reason I made move 14 instead of attaching to the black stone was to try to make some space. Was this good in theory?
Move 50: Just wanted to state that this was my dumbest move of the match. I wasn't sure where to play, I was thinking D7 but then I made a rash decision to extend from Q13.
Thank you for any advice that you can give!
http://files.gokgs.com/games/2011/2/25/Xai-happymugen.sgf
Re: A few questions from my first 19x19 KGS game
Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:25 am
by Li Kao
12 Such an invasion is usually better off on the 3rd line. Since then you can make a base
82 taking that stone doesn't look good to me. It allows him to seal you in. I would have played at g4 or perhaps f2. With those black still can't rescue his two stones.
164 That invasion should have lived. You need to protect before he invades. But finding the right timing for that protection is hard.
Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:01 am
by EdLee
Welcome to 19x19! Try to finish 100 games as quickly as you can --
9x9, 13x13, or 19x19 all OK. A few ideas:
(;CA[utf-8]FF[4]ST[2]RU[Japanese]OT[5x30 byo-yomi]AP[CGoban:3]SZ[19]GM[1]DT[2011-02-25]
PC[KGS]PB[happymugen]BR[21k]PW[Xai]KM[6.5]TM[1800]RE[W+15.5]MULTIGOGM[0]
;B[qp]BL[1784.04];W[ec]WL[1790.64];B[dp]BL[1777.71];W[pd]WL[1785.15];B[dj]BL[1760.06]
;W[dg]WL[1762.64];B[pj]BL[1755.03];W[pg]WL[1738.54];B[qi]BL[1753.04];W[qg]WL[1730.92]
;B[jh]BL[1746.27]
(;W[jp]WL[1726.28]C[See var.];B[iq]BL[1729.01];W[mp]WL[1706.73];B[oq]BL[1710.17]
;W[jq]WL[1689.64];B[ip]BL[1702.3]
(;W[ir]WL[1683.14]C[See var.];B[hr]BL[1695.76]
(;W[kr]WL[1671.32]C[See var.];B[is]BL[1693.12]
(;W[jr]WL[1667.71]LB[kr:a][is:b][jr:c]C[Here, the (a) stone is not very useful, so it was not good to allow the (b)-(c) exchange -- so just connect at (c) directly was better. See var.]
;B[jo]BL[1672.95]C[B gets this powerful move first "hane at the head of" your stones.]
;W[ko]WL[1654.03]
(;B[lq]BL[1660.44]C[See var.]
(;W[mq]WL[1646.96]C[See var.];B[lp]BL[1649.32];W[lo]WL[1637.13];B[mr]BL[1627.34]
;W[lr]WL[1614.43];B[nq]BL[1621.01];W[nr]WL[1593.85];B[np]BL[1605.19];W[mo]WL[1573.96]
;B[kn]BL[1573.94];W[ln]WL[1551.47]C[Very slow and bad shape (empty triangle). Your group here is already alive, so you do no need to run any more.]
;B[in]BL[1572.67];W[or]WL[1533.03];B[pr]BL[1562.65]
(;W[ms]WL[1511.62]C[You took gote here. You are not in atari yet -- why did you take? See var.]
;B[pp]BL[1560.56];W[os]WL[1507.76]LB[nr:a]C[This group was alive after (a), no need to make more eyes.]
;B[ps]BL[1545.97];W[jd]WL[1489.95];B[nm]BL[1530.68];W[km]WL[1480.33];B[jn]BL[1525.71]
;W[mm]WL[1475.96];B[nn]BL[1520.9];W[pi]WL[1462.76];B[ph]BL[1512.77];W[oi]WL[1460.67]
;B[oh]BL[1510.81];W[ni]WL[1452.54];B[nh]BL[1502.03];W[mi]WL[1418.92];B[mh]BL[1479.1]
;W[mk]WL[1414.79];B[nl]BL[1468.86];W[nk]WL[1392.04];B[ok]BL[1462.22];W[nj]WL[1378.33]
;B[pl]BL[1456.68];W[qh]WL[1368.64];B[rj]BL[1446.08];W[ri]WL[1360.36];B[qj]BL[1438.72]
(;W[sh]WL[1321.5]C[See var.];B[sj]BL[1429.09];W[si]WL[1317.13];B[li]BL[1407.41]
;W[ml]WL[1274.99];B[no]BL[1380.78];W[nf]WL[1248.76];B[hl]BL[1359.41];W[hq]WL[1220.59]
;B[hp]BL[1350.13];W[gq]WL[1217.69];B[fq]BL[1328.81];W[gr]WL[1210.93];B[gs]BL[1324.22]
(;W[hs]WL[1203.59]C[See var.];B[fr]BL[1309.25];W[fs]WL[1197.08];B[es]BL[1303.97]
(;W[gs]WL[1192.12]C[See var.];B[gp]BL[1299.32];W[js]WL[1186.36];B[fo]BL[1290.32]
;W[er]WL[1172.48];B[eq]BL[1236.7];W[dr]WL[1169.9];B[cr]BL[1233.98];W[dq]WL[1148.59]
;B[cq]BL[1231.32];W[ds]WL[1147.18];B[cs]BL[1227.89];W[es]WL[1145.8];B[co]BL[1204.43]
;W[gh]WL[1100.4];B[hi]BL[1188.31];W[hh]WL[1091.25];B[gi]BL[1184.28];W[fh]WL[1084.94]
;B[fi]BL[1173.5];W[eh]WL[1074.12];B[ei]BL[1169.33];W[di]WL[1065.61];B[ci]BL[1165.56]
;W[dh]WL[1062.99];B[bi]BL[1146.72];W[ch]WL[1060.32];B[ai]BL[1144.92];W[bh]WL[1057.11]
;B[bj]BL[1142.69];W[ah]WL[1045.35];B[ih]BL[1134.41];W[ig]WL[1040.64];B[kh]BL[1127.71]
;W[lg]WL[1038.19];B[lh]BL[1118.85];W[kg]WL[1000.25];B[ji]BL[1114.58];W[mg]WL[979.19]
;B[lj]BL[1093.01];W[og]WL[955.722];B[oj]BL[1085.3];W[jg]WL[941.622];B[lk]BL[1082.72]
;W[ll]WL[935.791];B[kl]BL[1079.53];W[jl]WL[921.453];B[kk]BL[1076.4];W[jm]WL[912.708]
;B[ik]BL[1067.87];W[lm]WL[904.938];B[im]BL[1052.67];W[jk]WL[896.589];B[jj]BL[1051.19]
;W[gg]WL[875.261];B[il]BL[1047.4];W[rg]WL[808.42];B[cd]BL[1040.12]
(;W[cc]WL[793.37]C[See var.];B[bc]BL[1033.41]
(;W[dd]WL[784.693]C[See var.];B[be]BL[1030.22];W[ce]WL[775.526];B[bd]BL[1017.48]
;W[cf]WL[755.647];B[cb]BL[1015.58];W[dc]WL[753.62];B[db]BL[1007.27];W[eb]WL[731.068]
(;B[da]BL[1005.34]C[See var.];W[bb]WL[684.498]
(;B[ab]BL[988.859]C[B killed himself. See var.]
(;W[ea]WL[674.325]C[You missed a kill and forced B to live. See var.];B[ba]BL[969.303]
;W[bf]WL[638.917];B[ae]BL[963.548];W[af]WL[636.422];B[pc]BL[936.9];W[qc]WL[604.297]
;B[qb]BL[926.408];W[pb]WL[588.528];B[rc]BL[910.435];W[oc]WL[581.08];B[qd]BL[908.878]
;W[pc]WL[554.146];B[qa]BL[893.405];W[rd]WL[520.439];B[sd]BL[845.936];W[re]WL[493.959]
;B[sb]BL[829.302]
(;W[se]WL[471.808]C[This gives B a chance with a ko. See var.]
(;B[sc]BL[825.479]C[See var.];W[ra]WL[451.149];B[jc]BL[798.377];W[kc]WL[424.482]
;B[ic]BL[793.286];W[jb]WL[403.248];B[ib]BL[784.01];W[ja]WL[391.417];B[ia]BL[777.267]
;W[kb]WL[389.647];B[hd]BL[766.944];W[id]WL[376.984];B[gc]BL[762.929];W[gb]WL[362.198]
;B[fb]BL[760.061];W[fc]WL[355.617];B[ga]BL[755.896];W[fa]WL[353.429];B[hb]BL[754.239]
;W[ha]WL[349.684];B[gd]BL[743.45];W[hc]WL[343.732]
(;B[]BL[743.45];W[pa]WL[293.999];B[]BL[743.45];W[]WL[293.998]TB[ak][bk][ck][dk]
[ek][fk][gk][hk][pk][qk][rk][sk][al][bl][dl][el][fl][gl][ol][ql][rl][cl][sl][am]
[bm][cm][dm][em][fm][gm][hm][om][pm][qm][rm][sm][an][bn][cn][dn][en][fn][gn][hn]
[on][pn][qn][rn][sn][ao][bo][do][eo][go][ho][io][oo][po][qo][ro][so][bp][cp][ep]
[fp][op][rp][sp][ki][aq][bq][pq][qq][rq][sq][ar][br][qr][rr][sr][as][bs][qs][rs]
[ss][aa][ca][bb][ac][ad][ii][ap][aj][cj][ej][fj][gj][hj][ij][kj]TW[ga][ia][ka][la]
[ma][na][oa][qa][sa][fb][hb][ib][lb][mb][nb][ob][qb][rb][sb][gc][ic][lc][mc][nc]
[rc][sc][ed][fd][gd][hd][kd][ld][md][nd][od][qd][sd][de][ee][fe][ge][he][ie][je]
[ke][le][me][ne][oe][pe][qe][df][ef][ff][gf][hf][if][jf][kf][lf][mf][of][pf][qf]
[rf][sf][ag][cg][eg][fg][hg][sg][rh][kp][lp][kq][lq][hr][mr][is][ks][ls][ns][jc]
[bg])
(;B[]BL[743.45])
(;B[]BL[709.438];W[]WL[343.731]TW[aa][ba][ca][da][ea][fa][ga][ha][ia][ja][ka][la]
[ma][na][oa][pa][qa][sa][ab][bb][cb][db][eb][fb][gb][hb][ib][jb][kb][lb][mb][nb]
[ob][pb][qb][rb][sb][ac][bc][cc][dc][ec][fc][gc][hc][ic][jc][kc][lc][mc][nc][oc]
[pc][qc][rc][sc][ad][bd][cd][dd][ed][fd][gd][hd][id][jd][kd][ld][md][nd][od][pd]
[qd][rd][sd][ae][be][ce][de][ee][fe][ge][he][ie][je][ke][le][me][ne][oe][pe][qe]
[re][se][af][bf][cf][df][ef][ff][gf][hf][if][jf][kf][lf][mf][nf][of][pf][qf][rf]
[sf][ag][bg][cg][dg][eg][fg][gg][hg][ig][jg][kg][lg][mg][ng][og][pg][qg][rg][sg]
[ah][bh][ch][dh][eh][fh][gh][hh][ih][jh][kh][lh][mh][nh][oh][ph][qh][rh][sh][ai]
[bi][ci][di][ei][fi][gi][hi][ii][ji][ki][li][qi][ri][si][aj][bj][cj][dj][ej][fj]
[gj][hj][ij][jj][kj][lj][mj][oj][pj][qj][rj][sj][ak][bk][ck][dk][ek][fk][gk][hk]
[ik][kk][lk][ok][pk][qk][rk][sk][al][bl][cl][dl][el][fl][gl][hl][il][kl][nl][ol]
[pl][ql][rl][sl][am][bm][cm][dm][em][fm][gm][hm][im][nm][om][pm][qm][rm][sm][an]
[bn][cn][dn][en][fn][gn][hn][in][jn][kn][mn][nn][on][pn][qn][rn][sn][ao][bo][co]
[do][eo][fo][go][ho][io][jo][no][oo][po][qo][ro][so][ap][bp][cp][dp][ep][fp][gp]
[hp][ip][np][op][pp][qp][rp][sp][aq][bq][cq][eq][fq][iq][nq][oq][pq][qq][rq][sq]
[ar][br][cr][fr][hr][mr][pr][qr][rr][sr][as][bs][cs][is][ks][ls][ns][ps][qs][rs]
[ss]))
(;B[ra];W[sc]C[Ko for life.]))
(;W[ra]C[B is dead.]))
(;W[ba]LB[ca:a][aa:b]C[B cannot play either (a) or (b) because of shortage of liberties.]
;B[ac];W[ea]))
(;B[ba];W[ab];B[ac];W[ea];B[aa]))
(;B[ba]C[B is alive.]))
(;W[cb]
(;B[bb]C[See also var.];W[be];B[bd]C[B is dead -- prove to yourself -- study this Life-and-Death.])
(;B[be];W[bb];B[ad];W[bf];B[cf];W[bg];B[dd];W[df])))
(;W[cb]C[Remove eye-space without any contact.]))
(;W[gp];B[gs];W[js]))
(;W[fs];B[gp];W[fr];B[er];W[hs];B[dr]))
(;W[rh]))
(;W[km];B[jn]))
(;W[jn]C[Do this big sente first...];B[io];W[mq]C[...then come back here.]))
(;B[kn]C[B wants the outside, which is much more valuable.]))
(;W[jo];B[jr];W[io]))
(;W[jr]C[Just connect is better here.]))
(;W[io]LB[ir:a]C[Proverb: "hane at the head of two stones"
Here, the outside (5th line) is more valuable than your 2nd line hane at (a). See follow-ups.]
;B[ho]C[If B plays here...];W[hn]C[...you can double-hane. Of course this depends on the reading.]
;B[go];W[jn]))
(;W[kq]LB[hq:a][nq:b]C[On the 3rd line, you have (a) and (b) miai to settle --
if B takes (a), you can take (b), and vice versa.]))
Re: A few questions from my first 19x19 KGS game
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:52 am
by Xai
Thank you both Li Kao and EdLee! Your advice makes sense to me and I will work on incorporating those types of moves into my mind. I have studied your responses and looked up more on the topic of miai. Thanks!
Re: A few questions from my first 19x19 KGS game
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:24 pm
by Li Kao
I think playing more and doing a bit of easy tsumego are the things that'll help you most.
I for one played about three games a day during my first year of go. While that's a bit too far on the playing vs studying scale, at least one 19x19 game per game should be good.