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Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1
Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:46 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
I've been reading "A Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - The Korean Style" from Kisedo. ( It is heavy on diagrams, with little connective text. But if you work at it, you can get some of the idea of what is going on. )
There are problems in the back of the book. I'm starting on them, to see if I have really learned anything. I invite others to join me.
For the diagram below, they ask which white move is better to contest black's growing strength in the top right:
$$c Problem 1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c Problem 1
Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1
Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:50 pm
by emerus
Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1
Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:54 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
My initial opinion is this:
The corner is invadable, at either R16 or R17. To invade the corner compels black to build the outside wall which greatly restricts the success of follow up moves to 'b' ( someplace around 'c' ).
But the most likely responses to 'b' will still leave the corner invadable.
$$c Problem 1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c Problem 1
Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1
Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:01 pm
by Dusk Eagle
I'll guess 'b'. If you play 'a', this sequence might happen:
$$Wc Problem 1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc Problem 1And white's group is still kind of weak, meaning black will likely profit along the top.
Meanwhile, if you play 'b', you can reduce the side, invade the top corner if black answers with a keima, and your stone helps put slight pressure on the top.
Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1
Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:11 pm
by emerus
Dusk Eagle wrote:
I'll guess 'b'. If you play 'a', this sequence might happen:
$$Wcm1 Problem 1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1 Problem 1And white's group is still kind of weak, meaning black will likely profit along the top.
Meanwhile, if you play 'b', you can reduce the side, invade the top corner if black answers with a keima, and your stone helps put slight pressure on the top.
I personally wouldnt mind this as W. I do think W owes another move locally so B will have sente.
Personally I feel more worried about another variation:
$$Wcm1 Problem 1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1 Problem 1Black feels too strong and white too gote...
Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1
Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:40 pm
by CnP
I've got no chance ! but
I like the the probe at a - in disagreement with all the much stronger players
Mainly because it reminds me a lot of an example in Strategic concepts of Go (G6), e.g. page 55. Force black to settle his shape then take advantage or preserve aji or something .. clearly probes aren't always right though.. still I like trying new things.
Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1
Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:07 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
Dusk Eagle wrote: ... If you play 'a', this sequence might happen:
$$Wc Problem 1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc Problem 1And white's group is still kind of weak, meaning black will likely profit along the top.
...
If I thought that black would force me outward as shown above, I'd play 'a' without hesitation.
This looks good for white:
$$Wc Problem 1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc Problem 1White's invasion is looking hard to kill, and he still has secondary invasions around 'd' and 'e'.
Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1
Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:40 am
by gaius
I would play 'b', aiming at making black overconcentrated. For example, if
then
becomes perfect:
$$Wc Problem 1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc Problem 1'a' doesn't really make me happy, because a black wall towards the center without a white reduction in place looks too good for black (I think):
$$Wc Problem 1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc Problem 1
Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1
Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:09 am
by Stable
I'm with Gaius and Joaz on this. When will you look at the answer J?
Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1
Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:06 am
by Magicwand
it is nice to talk about which move is better but...
Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1
Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:21 am
by Joaz Banbeck
But if we learn to make all the choices like a pro, we will be as strong as a pro.
Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1
Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:11 pm
by Magicwand
Joaz Banbeck wrote: But if we learn to make all the choices like a pro, we will be as strong as a pro.
my point is that this problem is beyond the scope of amature players.
it will be more beneficial for us to study problems that actually help us get stronger.
i think even professionals will disagree on which move is better.
Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1
Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:36 pm
by Dusk Eagle
Magicwand wrote: Joaz Banbeck wrote: But if we learn to make all the choices like a pro, we will be as strong as a pro.
my point is that this problem is beyond the scope of amature players.
it will be more beneficial for us to study problems that actually help us get stronger.
i think even professionals will disagree on which move is better.
While I agree, I also think that if you enjoy thinking about problems like these, you can still get benefit from it. The benefit may be low, but if it's far more enjoyable to some people than other types of problems, there's nothing wrong with doing them.
Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1
Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:06 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
It appears that the concensus of 'b' is correct, and Gaius came very close to the exact answer:
Dictionary of Modern Fuseki wrote: $$Wc Problem 1 wrong answer
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc Problem 1 wrong answer...after 10, black's stones are thick and their influence is overwhelming...white needs one more move to secure the corner.
$$Wc Problem 1 right answer
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc Problem 1 right answer$$Wc Problem 1 right answer continued
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc Problem 1 right answer continued...white's territory is better than black's influence.
They don't mention anything about overconcentration, but I think that it is implied here.
Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1
Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:27 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
then 
becomes perfect: