Life In 19x19

I'm 22k on KGS and have played around 20 or so games, and out of those games I've won 1 or 2 games. The people I've been losing to have been higher ranked than me in the 23,24,25k areas.

How long are you suppose to lose for until you actually see some improvement? I know everyone is different but was just wondering what has everyone else's experience been like as a newbie and when you've seen some improvement.

The rule of thumb is to get through your first 50 losses as quickly as possible. Some people say 100. I probably played 50 about 9x9 games against the computer before I was willing to go online and play actual people.

Go has the hardest learning curve of any game that I have ever seen. What you are experiencing is normal. Hang in there, it will get better. It will be worth it in the long run.

Try to finish 100 games as quickly as you can afford to. Don't worry about the wins and losses.

SkyNative wrote:I'm 22k on KGS and have played around 20 or so games, and out of those games I've won 1 or 2 games. The people I've been losing to have been higher ranked than me in the 23,24,25k areas.

How long are you suppose to lose for until you actually see some improvement? I know everyone is different but was just wondering what has everyone else's experience been like as a newbie and when you've seen some improvement.

Another good thing to do is have stronger players review your games. It's what I was told and it really does help. I can't say I'm the best teacher in the world, but considering your level there might be some things I could help with.

SkyNative wrote:I'm 22k on KGS and have played around 20 or so games, and out of those games I've won 1 or 2 games. The people I've been losing to have been higher ranked than me in the 23,24,25k areas.

How long are you suppose to lose for until you actually see some improvement? I know everyone is different but was just wondering what has everyone else's experience been like as a newbie and when you've seen some improvement.

You've probably improved drastically already without realizing it. Go back and look at your first game and see how many of your moves you still agree with. Heck, I bet if you looked at your most recent game you'd find some moves you'd play different now, too...

I agree with the people that say quickly playing a ton of 9x9 games vs igowin will teach you to avoid a lot of easy to make mistakes that are disastrous on the big board.

I think the fairest response is that it varies from person to person. Different people will pick up different concepts at different speeds. 20 or so games is definitely not enough to conclude anything from. Incidentally I was only brave enough to go onto KGS when I'd played the computer perhaps 100-200 times on a 9x9. If you miss out this step of development and move straight to playing on a 19x19, you might miss out on some immediate benefit.

For one, you can play four or five 9x9s in the time it takes to play one 19x19, so you get a lot more practise of fighting a lot more quickly. Fighting skill will set you apart at your level - a 20-25k player generally is not going to be fighting very well on a 9x9 (never mind a 19x19!) If you can get in the practise now on a smaller board, you'll have a leg up on your competitors.

Secondly, as a beginner, you need to focus more so on what's going on in a local area (though this will change as you move up!) If you're trying to juggle all the information of a 19x19 in your head with basically no experience, it might be a bit overwhelming. I remember being somewhat scared to play on a 19x19 when I was a beginner - it was so big! So many choices... How could I keep track of all of that information properly...? Now I play all my (non-teaching) games on a 19x19, and the 9x9 looks so tiny . I played on a 9x9 in real life a month or so ago and it was really surreal. But it's where the journey begins . Build up, bit by bit. A good, secure house is built on a solid foundation. Think of your go skills like that.

Good luck, keep at it!

If you are frustrated by your progress, you might also ask whether you are playing too quickly. I, at least, learn to spot glaring mistakes by analysis first, and only later learn to spot them by intuition; so when I'm learning quickly it shows up much more in my considered decisions than in my impulses.

But my thought is less important than the other thought which the others have offered. Don't worry about your rank or your progress or anything else until you've played many more games. If your kgs account is "skynative", you've only been playing for 9 days! (And you won seven of them, you sly dog.)

By the way, I hate to introduce you to one of the most narcissistic habits of Go players, but...

SkyNative wrote:I'm 22k on KGS and have played around 20 or so games, and out of those games I've won 1 or 2 games. The people I've been losing to have been higher ranked than me in the 23,24,25k areas.

How long are you suppose to lose for until you actually see some improvement? I know everyone is different but was just wondering what has everyone else's experience been like as a newbie and when you've seen some improvement.

First, at your stage you are probably learning something in every game, whether you win or lose.

Second, you should lose about half of your games. If you are playing the same people, change the handicap after each game. Otherwise, if you are losing too many games and your handicap is based upon your rating, your rating is too high. It should correct quickly.

Third, don't take your rating seriously during your first year of play.

Good luck!

Also, before 12 or 13k, you'll get a lot of incorrectly ranked players on KGS. Not just sandbaggers, but also other beginners who may be very strong in one aspect of the game (possibly one where you're weak in) and not nearly so in other areas. The differences between 15 and 25k on KGS are probably relatively marginal.

The proverb, I think, stems from a time when beginners played against much stronger players as a rule. Today, you get roughly (very roughly) equal players -- other beginners -- as your opponents, so you are not "supposed" to lose 100 games straight. As Bill said, it's more like 50% (also very roughly). It also doesn't necessarily mean you should lose 100 games in a row, but that after 100 lost games you may have a grasp on the basics. (Or more, if you only blitz through your games.)

Don't worry about the rank. It's just a tool to give you opponents that you can have enjoyable, somewhat even games with. It doesn't reflect on you as a person, or your intelligence -- only on your experience with go and your current ability (when it comes to go). Look at some of your games and try to find 2-3 significant mistakes you may have made and try to think of a better move. Also try to identify 2-3 good moves you made.

Play play some 9x9 too. You can do that against the computer (on 9x9), which will help you with tactics and reading. Before putting down a stone, visualize your next move on the board, your opponent's possibly next move, and your response to this, even if it's a seemingly obvious move you are going to make. You can also consider different responses. That's perfectly do-able at your current level and as a side-effect it'll prevent you from playing too fast too.

Long...

I heard some ppl saying that you keep losing consistently on a regular basis til 8k...

mayweed wrote:Long...

I heard some ppl saying that you keep losing consistently on a regular basis til 8k...

That's just not true. It depends who you play. If a 12k player plays 20k people all the time, he should win pretty much every game.

mayweed wrote:Long...

I heard some ppl saying that you keep losing consistently on a regular basis til 8k...

Impossible, as should be apparent.

I heard that even pros lose sometimes, but I'm sure that's a myth.

Thanks everyone, I'll definitely keep playing.