Life In 19x19

hello, i was playing a game and this move came up and i can't find reference for it anywhere, so i was hoping i could get some help here.

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[go]$$
$$ ----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

so far i've thought about these two moves

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[go]$$
$$ ----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$
$$ ----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . O O . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

but i don't really know where to go from here

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[go]$$
$$ ----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . Q O . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

I'd play this move and be satisfied. Black's approach stone seems awkward now and if he wants to live on top he has to crawl. Separating seems important, but

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[go]$$
$$ ----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . Q . . . .
$$ | . . a X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

This move is immediately bad shape for white, and it leaves black with (a) which threatens to connect and helps his shape on the side.

This move is almost definitely not joseki, it reeks of a trick play to me so maybe someone more educated in those matters can be more helpful.

mw42 wrote:

$$
$$ ----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . Q O . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$
$$ ----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . Q O . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

I'd play this move and be satisfied. Black's approach stone seems awkward now and if he wants to live on top he has to crawl. Separating seems important, but

$$
$$ ----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . Q . . . .
$$ | . . a X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$
$$ ----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . Q . . . .
$$ | . . a X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

This move is immediately bad shape for white, and it leaves black with (a) which threatens to connect and helps his shape on the side.

This move is almost definitely not joseki, it reeks of a trick play to me so maybe someone more educated in those matters can be more helpful.

I'd definitely play the second diagram. I can't find anything actually wrong with it, and the first one sets my trick play alarm off.

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[go]$$
$$ ----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . O O . B . .
$$ | . . . , . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

For example, what now?

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[go]$$Bm1
$$ ----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . O O . 1 . .
$$ | . . . , a . . .
$$ | . . 2 X . . . .
$$ | . . 4 3 . . . .
$$ | . . . 5 . . . .
$$ | . . 6 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

I don't know, maybe just attach underneath? If black pushes to make a wall, it has a weakness at (a) so maybe this is not so good.

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[go]$$Bm1
$$ ----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . O O . 1 . .
$$ | . . . , . . . .
$$ | . . 2 X . . . .
$$ | . . 3 4 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

If black plays hane then white can cross-cut. He has a two-stone wall to help him in a fight.

Also it looks like the intention of might be to seal white in, if that is the case perhaps this is playable (the assumption being the outside is important)

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[go]$$Bm1 still has a lot of aji...
$$ ----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . Q Q 5 1 4 .
$$ | . . . , 3 2 6 .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bm1
$$ ----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . O O . 1 . .
$$ | . . . , 4 2 3 .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

I actually had a similar situation in a recent game of mine.

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[go]$$
$$ ----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 O 3 . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

I played , and Black took . I think that it is not easy to answer.

Do you think that this is sufficient for White?

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[go]$$
$$ ----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 6 . . . .
$$ | . . 2 O 3 7 . .
$$ | . . . 5 4 . . .
$$ | . 8 . X . 9 . .
$$ | . . 0 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

How urgent do you think is ?

mw42 wrote:Also it looks like the intention of :B1: might be to seal white in, if that is the case perhaps this is playable (the assumption being the outside is important)

$$Bm1 still has a lot of aji...
$$ ----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . Q Q 5 1 4 .
$$ | . . . , 3 2 6 .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bm1 still has a lot of aji...
$$ ----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . Q Q 5 1 4 .
$$ | . . . , 3 2 6 .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bm1
$$ ----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X 7 . . . .
$$ | . . O O 5 1 4 .
$$ | . . . , 3 2 6 .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

This is simply terrible for White, unplayable.

Harleqin wrote:I actually had a similar situation in a recent game of mine.

$$
$$ ----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 O 3 . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$
$$ ----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 O 3 . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

This perhaps exposes the trick play? The normal joseki I see when 3 is played is usually:

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[go]$$
$$ ----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . a . 4 . . .
$$ | . . b O 3 6 . .
$$ | . . . , 5 . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

Obviously at this point responding to a at b would be a grave error:

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[go]$$
$$ ----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X 1 O 2 . .
$$ | . 3 O O X O . .
$$ | . 5 4 , X . . .
$$ | . 8 6 X . . . .
$$ | . 9 7 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

However, your W4 looks to be an excellent result for W.

thanks for all the help! all of this is really helpful.

Hmmm. What about something like this?

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[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 O . 1 . . 3 . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

threatens 2.

Compare with this:

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[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 W . 2 . . 4 . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

- is joseki, but then the exchange of and is bad for Black.

I wouldn't mind that result as black. black gets sente and some nice corner.

but then the exchange of and is bad for Black.

It is? It looks like a bad exchange for white to me.