Life In 19x19

Hi,
If you look at the final results of Paris tournament 3 strange names appear on top. 3 chinese professional players sweeping an european amateur tournament, losing only to each other. Considering the amount of complaints about single korean highlevel amateurs at european toptournaments, i find it confusing, this incident wasn't brought up here until now.
Even though the strength difference might be not so enourmous (but the pros still won all their games), there is still a difference between an asian amateur, who is staying in Europe anyway (for Go) to participate in a tournament and a group of professionals, who are on an advertisement trip for their business to take home the whole podium of a tourney.
It might be a funny way for them to show their strength, and promote their business, but couldnt that be done in a better way? If you just think back to Shusaku Cup this year, you saw a very good way to show the true professional level, without disturbing the tournament. The attending chinese professionals there played Handicap games against the topperformers of the tourney after the tourney games, and those games were then relayed on KGS. Everyone had to admit, that crushing european 5d-6d with Handicap is quite an amazing feat. You dont have to take away the first places of the tournament to prove your level.
There should be no doubt, that european highlevel tourneys like EGC, ShusakuCup, KidoCup (here non european players are not allowed in topgroup) or Pandanet paris tournament try to attract european topplayers also by their prizemoney. Without this incentitive it is hard to travel all across Europe just for some Go tournament. And as i said, in the past, there were a lot of complaints by high ranked european players, that korean AMATEURS participate in those tourneys, taking away a big share of the prizemoney or influencing the inner european standings in a bad way which also lead to the change of the EGC-system. If we now get used to the idea, that whoever professional, that just feels like it, sweeps european tourneys, there soon wont be many tournaments left, where we can see european top players compete.
What would be done, if some highranked pro just spontanously decides to take part in EGC? (there was a lowranked taiwanese professional taking part in EGC few years ago, but didnt do well... but well... there are stronger ones out there who could take down the tourney more easily)


PS: Im not saying anything against the european pros (Shikshina, Koszegi, Taranu, Dinerstein) participating in such events, and i guess, it is accepted, that those european based professionals (Guo Juan, Fan Hui) take part in tournaments here from time to time. Even though, you might ask, how about professionals like Kim SungRae, Lee YoungShin, Ko JuYeon or Yoon YoungSun. (they actually dont want to particiapte, so there is no problem, but what if they would want to )
PSS: I dont have any problems with MilanMilan and his friends, but still i think, that as a professional, they should know, that they didnt really help the european goscene with their behaviour.

I'm trying very hard to feel sympathetic, but failing.

It is an open tournament. If you don't want strong foreign pros playing, add a residency requirement, or make it invitational.

Several things need to be considered:

- Championships: Only Europeans / citizens should get the title or - depending on the tournament system - participate.
- Open tournaments: It is nice to see the world participating in Europe.
- Prize moneys: It depends on what shall be achieved by the tournament. Attract players from the whole world? Support Europeans to travel to the tournament? Keep most of the money floating around European tournaments in Europe?
- Travel support: If Europeans (or possibly regular visitors) shall benefit from European tournaments, support their travel expenses. At least for "top" players. Prizes are no conflict if travel support is used. Why is it rarely used?!

You can't make good money with Go, so why should the price-money only be awarded to strong european players (even those european pros), who are still weak when it comes to a competition with asian amateurs(!)? And for the argument of travel costs: Well, asian amateurs and even those pros had their share of costs, too, I guess ^^

I still think european Go profits from those asian amateurs or pro, even if they will win the price-money like everytime. I, for instance, never heard that these players rejected a sensible question concerning a Joseki, an opening, a Life-and-Death situation and so on. They even review top-level-games, when asked (maybe not everytime, but who's does...).
For me personally it's more about learning Go and to be able to see how much room for improvement there still is.

If I would not participate in a tournament, because I have no chance of winning money, I think every player until three or four Dan (depends on country and size of the tournament - maybe even five Dans when it comes to big german tournaments) can stay at home. Really nice gathering then.

Usually prizes in European tournaments are financed by entry fees. So the money comes from the European go community. If too much money flows out of Europe, then the European scene dries out financially. E.g., it would be possible to have no prizes at all but finance other activities from that Europeans benefit more than from external teaching input. I am not arguing against prize money per se; they make tournaments more attractive. More attractive for whom is the question. I think a good mixture is essential. Some money for travel, some for European prizes, some for open prizes, some for other activities.

RobertJasiek wrote:If too much money flows out of Europe, then the European scene dries out financially.

Right...
That's why like 90% of the participants never have any chance of winning anything and still take part. Every year. And again. (Like myself.)
It would be more sensible then to just take money from high-dan-players, because statistically they are the ones who benefit, not DDKs, SDKs or even low dans. (No, I don't advocate this. I participate because it's fun and Disney World is even more expensive.)


post scriptum: Funny fact besides, the most frequent asian "price-money-takers" life in Europe (as far as I know), so it's not even a drain of any kind.

I can't muster any sympathy either. I think even that the European players, especially the stronger ones, should feel grateful for the presence of the pros. And even if the Chinese were'nt there, it looks like Korean amateurs would have scopped the pool anyway.

I think Robert's analysis is largely correct. Europe needs to decide how to handle such situations. The important thing is that it should be European players as a whole, not just a clique of wannabee professionals.

If European players as a whole decide that European go would be best served by giving top Europeans subventions or exemptions, or by restricting tournament access, fine. But in coming to a decision I'd hope they would not be misled by assuming the excessive generosity of the Japanese, Ing, etc in the past is to be taken for granted. In future, the only way to get top Oriental players into Europe may be to attract them with prizes. Personally I think that's vital. There is nothing more debilitating to a person in any competitive field to reach an "OK plateau" where you sit back and take things easy. Top European players need to be continuously challenged. If the current crop of top players want to sit in their armchairs and whine, I'd say it's time to move over for a new crop, and in that respect I'm intrigued by the new (to me) name of Oh Lluis.

On a different note, I was a little shocked to see (if my quick glance was correct) that there were no players from the UK in the 167 entrants. There used to be a time when players made a conscious effort to support someone else's tournament. I hope that spirit is not dying out. That would be more serious than a handful of players missing out on a few euros.

(So Desu Ne, and some others, if I may without causing offence: it's prize, not price - and also the perpetual reminder about lose not loose).

I can't express how happy I was to sit there on EuroGoTV watching the top two boards of a European tournament, consisting of 3 professionals and strong Korean ex-insei. If we want stronger Europeans, I can't see the downsides to having players of that calibre to play against in a serious tournament.

I just wish they'd come and play me in the UK too.

This tournament was held in France, but even if we kept the Asians out, it would have been won by someone from Spain or Romania or God knows where else. How does the French go community benefit, and should it allow these outsiders to play?

hyperpape wrote:How does the French go community benefit, and should it allow these outsiders to play?

Even as a joke, this is bad because the tournament is an important EGF tournament rather than designed to be a national tournament.

RobertJasiek wrote:Usually prizes in European tournaments are financed by entry fees. So the money comes from the European go community. If too much money flows out of Europe, then the European scene dries out financially.

This is patently false. When entry fees flow towards prizes, the money is flowing from weaker player to stronger players, by and large. When money is put towards getting a strong player to teach, it does the same. When you buy a book, the proceeds will again go to stronger players 9 times out of 10. So money in the go scene has never moved in circles, it always moves from weaker players to stronger players.

And mostly, weaker players do not care much to whom their money goes. They pay for fun tournaments, good teaching and insightful books.

I have not tried to convey that person-based money would stay where it is but that money can or cannot or can partially stay in Europe.

RobertJasiek wrote:I have not tried to convey that person-based money would stay where it is but that money can or cannot or can partially stay in Europe.

Given the absolutely staggering amounts of money moving around, into and out of Europe, I don't think the movement of prize money in the go scene will have any noticeable impact

This reminds me of this year's Utrecht Marathon. Because they didn't the winner to come from Kenya they made the first prize to be something like:
a) E 10,000 - if won by a Dutch person
b) E 100 - if won by a foreigner
Result: there were no top-grade Kenyan participants, and the winning time was the slowest of the past five years... I simply don't see the added value in this.

RobertJasiek wrote:

hyperpape wrote:How does the French go community benefit, and should it allow these outsiders to play?

Even as a joke, this is bad because the tournament is an important EGF tournament rather than designed to be a national tournament.

Actually, if your concern was that tournament money was leaving the host area, I'm not sure why France should care that it's going to an EGF member as opposed to an Asian. Perhaps we should analyze which countries are net contributors of the EGF and which are net recipients of money.