Life In 19x19

Please note: I know that kyu players range from 30 (or 50, depending on how you count) to 1 kyu. But in my experience when a dan player or a professional speaks of 'the kyu player' they are talking about sdks.

The options
First off: the obligatory distinction between upper, middle and lower kyu. In theory only the 6k-4k range would meet the 'kyu' criteria.
6k-2k: This is your average (6k) or standard (2k) kyu (I'm using KGS in this survey)
7k-3k: Imho this is the target audience whenever someone gives a lesson for 'kyu players'

IMO, "kyu" applies to all "k" ranks.

I would take such statements at face value unless there are strong contextual reasons not to. So, if the answer is not "<= 1k", it depends too much on the context for there to be a general rule...

9k-1k... the full range of SDK...

I've added some voting choices since it seems I did not cover all. For everyone that voted until now: you have to vote again (sorry , but I hope your primary choice is now included in the selection)

Kirby wrote:IMO, "kyu" applies to all "k" ranks.

Of course it does. But I specified my 'kyu' to that often used by stronger players in commentaries.

daniel_the_smith wrote:I would take such statements at face value unless there are strong contextual reasons not to. So, if the answer is not "<= 1k", it depends too much on the context for there to be a general rule...

In theory I agree, but there are huge divergences, even in sdk. I've noticed that several commentaries note that 'kyu player' often play this or that. I'm wondering at which level these commentaries are aimed.



Maybe I should add a personal example. When I was ddk: whenever I watched/read commentaries and somebody mentioned a 'kyu player' would play at A, I often thought: "Whoa, what a move! I would have never thought of that!" And then the pro would go on to show a "refutation". In my eyes it never looked that bad. Honestly, as a ddk, I would have rather player the wrong 'kyu move' than play any of my alternatives.
Now, as a 7k, the 'kyu moves' are more often than not my fist instinct. So to see them refuted is a nice lesson. However I wonder if 1k's would really consider my plays mistakes or rather “you played THAT? How the HELL did you ever make it past 5k!?!"

1. Thread title question and poll question are two very different questions.
2. A kyu player is a kyu player. A statement directed to a kyu player can be directed to a 30k or a 1k or whatever in-between. Any implication otherwise depends on context. It's no different than when someone says a particular tsumego is 'for dan players'. Without context (the actual tsumego), it could mean for 1d players (Gengen Gokyo) just as much as it could mean for 7d players (Igo Hatsuyoron).

To me, 'Kyu player' means 1k-30k.

Nouns have precise meanings. That is why we have adjectives.

Mnemonic wrote:...
Maybe I should add a personal example. When I was ddk: whenever I watched/read commentaries and somebody mentioned a 'kyu player' would play at A, I often thought: "Whoa, what a move! I would have never thought of that!" And then the pro would go on to show a "refutation". In my eyes it never looked that bad. Honestly, as a ddk, I would have rather player the wrong 'kyu move' than play any of my alternatives.
Now, as a 7k, the 'kyu moves' are more often than not my fist instinct. So to see them refuted is a nice lesson. However I wonder if 1k's would really consider my plays mistakes or rather “you played THAT? How the HELL did you ever make it past 5k!?!"

I don't think it's necessarily useful to assign a rank range to what a pro or dan player says when they say a "kyu player would play this". If anything, I'd say that you can substitute the phrase, "a kyu player would..." with "an inexperienced player would..." or "a naive player would...", or in some cases even, "a poor player would...".

In my experience, since kyu ranks are weaker than dan ranks, saying "a kyu player would do this" is the same as saying, "this is what you should not do".

The distinction between 1k and 1d is kind of silly, I suppose, but since it's easy to divide amateur ranks into two groups - "bad player" (kyu) and "not quite so bad player" (dan), it's easy to use "kyu" as a term to specify the general concept of "weaker player".

I don't think it's necessarily useful to assign a rank range to what a pro or dan player says when they say a "kyu player would play this".

Yes, this is a western conceit (the usual fixation with numbers?) An Oriental pro actually would rarely say "a kyu player". Kyu just means class/grade and so requires an adjective (as jb says) and so the usual phraseology would be "high-grade" etc. Still fuzzy, but better, and with no problems as to which end of the scale is meant.

I agree with kirby that making the effort to reword the phrase is worthwhile, though "kyu player" is harmless enough. Two things I do find pernicious, though. One is "DDK". It sounds to me like dan players referring to a mass of players as the booboisie. The other is the necromantic belief among kyu players that dan grades mean that amateurs actually know anything significant about go techniques.

John Fairbairn wrote:...The other is the necromantic belief among kyu players that dan grades mean that amateurs actually know anything significant about go techniques.

It might be worth it to repeat this. There's sometimes pressure to become a "dan" player so that you are not bad at go anymore. But I think that being a dan player doesn't fix the problem.

Joaz Banbeck wrote:Nouns have precise meanings. That is why we have adjectives.

John Fairbairn wrote:Two things I do find pernicious, though. One is "DDK". It sounds to me like dan players referring to a mass of players as the booboisie.

As a proud SDK, I have no problem with that!

Joaz Banbeck wrote:Nouns have precise meanings. That is why we have adjectives.

Must... resist... temptation... to quote Carroll.

John Fairbairn wrote:

I don't think it's necessarily useful to assign a rank range to what a pro or dan player says when they say a "kyu player would play this".

Yes, this is a western conceit (the usual fixation with numbers?) An Oriental pro actually would rarely say "a kyu player". Kyu just means class/grade and so requires an adjective (as jb says) and so the usual phraseology would be "high-grade" etc. Still fuzzy, but better, and with no problems as to which end of the scale is meant.

I agree with kirby that making the effort to reword the phrase is worthwhile, though "kyu player" is harmless enough. Two things I do find pernicious, though. One is "DDK". It sounds to me like dan players referring to a mass of players as the booboisie. The other is the necromantic belief among kyu players that dan grades mean that amateurs actually know anything significant about go techniques.

Nobody else seems to bite, so I will...

Necromantic? I'd understand if the belief had ever been laid to rest in the first place, but it seems like it's been alive and well since the Nihon-Kiin started selling diplomas. But probably I'm just not getting the pun.

kyu is japanese for 9 just learned that on rosetta stone today lol