Life In 19x19

I'm not sure what section to post this in, but I'm guessing the right sort of people pay attention to this one, so...

I'm working on collecting some new data for my website, and I need an easy-to-apply definition of "tenuki". Anyone care to take a shot?

Bonus points for defining all your terms.

daniel_the_smith wrote:I'm working on collecting some new data for my website, and I need an easy-to-apply definition of "tenuki". Anyone care to take a shot?

Tenuki means to play somewhere else.

Bonus points for defining all your terms.

Like sente and gote, tenuki depends on the concept of locality. Towards the end of the game, it is possible to define independent regions of the board (except for ko fights, OC), and then tenuki is clear. Early on, however, regions of the board are seldom completely independent. Then what is considered tenuki is fuzzy. If a play is tactically related to the last play, it is not tenuki, no matter how far away it is on the board. If it is not tactically related, it is tenuki, no matter how close it is.

When you think about it, it is surprising that there is as much agreement as there is about what is tenuki and what is not.

A good tenuki is the go equivalent of removing someone's chair just as he is starting to sit down.

Joaz Banbeck wrote:A good tenuki is the go equivalent of removing someone's chair just as he is starting to sit down.

I'd view it more as leaving the room just as the other person sits down....

Although, in the strict sense, it depends on defining "local", there are (in my new book) pretty good criteria of conditions when playing elsewhere is attractive. Conditions such as this: "The set of local groups is stable."

Now, I propagate that the player chooses(!) what to consider as groups or belonging to a set of local groups. Hence locality can be derived from those given groups. Well, in principle. In practice one also needs some convention of how to form a local enviroment around a known, given group. E.g., the group plus all its liberties and maybe plus further (empty) intersections "in between". We get a locale. Playing outside the locale is then considered a tenuki.

(Everything needs to be updated every move.)

in korean.."hand out" which = not answering opponent's move.

Joaz Banbeck wrote:A good tenuki is the go equivalent of removing someone's chair just as he is starting to sit down.

No, in a way, that's an exact opposite: that's a tesuji.

Obviously nothing is tenuki, there's just one 19x19 board and everything affects everything else!

Nah, it is very useful to speak in terms of tenuki, as much as it is useful to speak of sente. We just need to remind that sometimes global relations are so strong that then using either word might be a mistake. Similarly, local can sometimes become global, e.g. when a string occupies 359 intersections to create a whole board life.

It is also not necessary to enhance a locale to a global scale because of a ladder or a ko. Rather one can express things with locale plus side conditions (like the existence of a specific ladder). Then the ladder breaker (if at a distance) is "played elsewhere".

RobertJasiek wrote:Nah, it is very useful to speak in terms of tenuki, as much as it is useful to speak of sente. We just need to remind that sometimes global relations are so strong that then using either word might be a mistake. Similarly, local can sometimes become global, e.g. when a string occupies 359 intersections to create a whole board life.

Indeed.

It is also not necessary to enhance a locale to a global scale because of a ladder or a ko. Rather one can express things with locale plus side conditions (like the existence of a specific ladder). Then the ladder breaker (if at a distance) is "played elsewhere".

Therein lies the problem with translation. A more "algebraic" translation of tenuki would be omit to play. However, that is awkward English, and might be confused with a pass. It is also not precise. Play elsewhere is more precise, but, as you indicate, Robert, might be confused with a ladder breaker. A ladder breaker is not tenuki, but if elsewhere is interpreted merely in terms of distance, could be considered to be a play elsewhere.

Tenuki means to play somewhere else.

Not really. The Japanese is a noun not a verb. The verb usage is te wo nuku or tenuki suru. More important, it means skipping a move. The point is (under the Japanese definition), it occurs when you do not respond to a threatening move just played by the opponent. Playing ine one area and ending in sente then playing somewhere else is not a tenuki. There is a sense of bravado in a tenuki, as in the proverb "if it's only worth 15 points, tenuki" (or variations on the number).

The ideal definition would also take account of the Japanese santenuki, which means skipping three moves when you only skip two

Also forget not that the word is common in ordinary Japanese. There the main idea is that some crucial steps have been omitted (i.e. nothing to do with going elsewhere). E.g. the Japanese for "you get what you pay for" is "yasumono wa tenuki ga shite aru".

Bill Spight wrote:if elsewhere is interpreted merely in terms of distance

I am not that great a fan of distance. Rather what I have wanted to say is "belonging to a locale (suitably chosen local set of intersections)" versus "not belonging to a locale". (We do the same in calculating (endgame) counts: we choose a locale in which points are compared and counted.)

John Fairbairn wrote:(under the Japanese definition), it occurs when you do not respond to a threatening move just played by the opponent.

I think, in English this is "ignore a threat" rather than "play elsewhere". So maybe Japanese and English tenuki differ in meaning.

daniel_the_smith wrote:I'm not sure what section to post this in, but I'm guessing the right sort of people pay attention to this one, so...

I'm working on collecting some new data for my website, and I need an easy-to-apply definition of "tenuki". Anyone care to take a shot?

Bonus points for defining all your terms.

good luck applying the above discussion to an automated data extractor (i guess your goal is to determine if a move is tenuki from a local joseki or not for your joseki db)

Seriously an interesting thing is that a ladder breaker is not really tenuki .. but checking the status of all ladders to determine if the move was a ladder breaker.. good luck ...

can a distance argument be used (apart form the ladder breaker issue)? ie a move a knight move away from the developing joseki is NOT tenuki.

But then you have to add to the "active" stones of the current joseki all that comes within this distance of the move played .. do i make sense ?

rephrasing my own thoughts:

you define a cut off distance D (which i propose to be of the order of the knight move or large knight move) and a set of stones that are part of the joseki. (at the start there is only the first stone in that set)
each time a stone is played less than this distance D , this is part of the joseki and it is added to the "active stones" set .
In addition, you add to the "active stones" each stone that become closer to the cut-off distance D as a result of the new play (so, a middle hoshi stone will be integrated to the active stone set if the joseki develop in that direction: thus a shoulder hit or a contact on this middle hoshi stone is not tenuki anymore)
ie (not saying the sequence is smart here just an example )

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c at a is not tenuki but at b it is
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . 4 . 6 . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

if you want to have an algo you have to use distance in some way or other.

in addition to cut off distance you should also take into account distance to other groups of course

@dts:
Out of curiosity, and if it is not secret, how does your current tenuki detection algo work today ?