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Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice
Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:54 am
by Chew Terr
$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1In this thread:
viewtopic.php?p=67016#p67016 Mezzanyne complained about having trouble playing white. I offered to play the first 30 or so turns with him, to just look at opening stuff. Every comment will be readable by both sides, so we kind of casually talk through our ideas on the openings.
Mezzanyne: are there any black openings you particularly dread? If so, I'll pick that, and we'll look at the best way to resist. Another thing you might want to consider is "In the Beginning" (you're probably a bit advanced for that, so it'll be an easy quick read, but it still may help cement ideas a bit). Once that's done, Kajiwara's "Direction of Play" will help you learn where and when to play, particularly in the opening.
As far as this move goes, every opening I play as black has the first stone at a 4-4. Things branch from here.
Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice
Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:10 am
by Bill Spight
Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice
Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:41 am
by mitsun
Bill Spight wrote: A diagonal fuseki may be inferior for Black, but it may be superior. Why give him the option, when White can guarantee an equitable fuseki?
Continuing this logic, a White play offering a diagonal fuseki says "I think a diagonal fuseki is inferior for Black, and I invite you to make this mistake"
Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice
Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:35 pm
by Laman
Bill Spight wrote: There are two arguments for White to play on the diagonally opposite 4-4. First, of course, is that the board returns to equality. Second is that, assuming that each player plays first in two corners, either player can force a parallel fuseki, and so a parallel fuseki is equitable. A diagonal fuseki may be inferior for Black, but it may be superior. Why give him the option, when White can guarantee an equitable fuseki?
if we go into such subtle differences, black choosing parallel fuseki gives him slightly less possibilities than when white choses parallel fuseki
this way black can choose how will 3 face 2, white has a choice how to place 4 against 1
$$Bcm1 Diagram 4-1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Diagram 4-1this way white can choose how will 2 face 1 and how will 4 face 3, so he can adapt better to black's strategy, for example choose 4 to limit black's ability to play Kobayashi or small chinese (while allowing diagonal)
$$Bcm1 Diagram 4-2
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Diagram 4-2and when black starts with asymetric 1, then playing 2 in the opposite corner gives him another choice - which side of his 1 he wants to play at
PS: i believe that neither of parallel or diagonal fuseki gives itself a significant advantage to either side, i think that player's style and personal preference is more important, unless you are at least a high dan. and it is boring to play exclusively only one type of fuseki.
Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice
Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:09 pm
by Dusk Eagle
Given that this is a learning game, and given the topic being discussed, I think it's okay to read everything that is hidden.
It's quite possible that with perfect play the result from both a diagonal and a parallel fuseki is the same.
Laman's point about choosing how to orient your
is an interesting idea as well. To rephrase it slightly, if White plays in the opposite diagonal corner, Black has all the information he needs on move 3 about the two adjacent corners to his move. But if White plays in a corner adjacent to
, Black is forced to place a stone in a corner without White having committed to any one move in the empty adjacent corner. White can (theoretically) adjust his move to counter black's intentions.
Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice
Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:07 pm
by Mezzanyne
$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1Hey! I didn't even see this thread opened up ^_^ I think I'll bookmark this site now so I keep up with the culture...
Thank you so much for giving me this chance to learn. I think I'll be using openings either I know I have issues with, or I don't know how to implement properly...or even some new ones, so I could figure out a new battle plan. Hopefully it'll be a learning experience for more than just me.
Openings that I dread? Hrm, well I open with low chinese as black often so I'm pretty confident when my opponent uses it. I suppose the first thing that comes to mind is Sanrensei or some other high building.
As a side note, this forum code for boards is quite clever ^^
Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:20 am
by Chew Terr
$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1No worries! Actually, I've been using sanrensei lately (non-exclusively, but it's my current favorite), so I may see how you respond to it. I have remarkably little experience with the Chinese, so perhaps I should get someone to practice that with me, next. =D In part I've been liking sanrensei because it encourages an opponent to invade sooner or later, and I love harrassing weak groups. However, I mostly adopted it because I want to learn how to handle influence. Let me know if you have any questions!
Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:44 am
by Mezzanyne
$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1
Pretty standard stuff; playing across the board at 2 so I can pick the orientation of my kosumi across from it. While W is only catching up in stone presence, that's quite a nice little perk. In general I find this choice is best when the first move on the board is a hoshi, as I always see value in this relation
$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1
Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:50 am
by Chew Terr
$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1Ack, sorry! I swapped the colors last move. Mind if I rotate it so it's back to matching the first two moves? I moved it so you would still be doing the same Kobayashi move. If you're not okay with the board moving, feel free to undo it or suggest an alternative. However, if you're fine with it, I'll take this move 5 (surprise!). Basically, I'm looking at a few options. For example, if you approach for a kind of delayed Kobayashi, I intend to pincer , to expand. With some kind of micro Chinese, I'd have to cypher and cogitate...
Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:54 am
by Mezzanyne
$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1I'm fine with it! In fact I'll give you the leisure of knowing my next move while you meditate on it.
Should we just forgo the hide tags?
Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:01 am
by Chew Terr
$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1For hide tags: I put one around each diagram, so it's not confusing. Additionally, I'll put one anywhere I have a TON of commentary, to save vertical scroll-space on the thread. But I'm only using them as a tool for aesthetics in that way, so feel free to read everything.
Okay, for this move: Like I said, I would pincer if approached. Yilun Yang, in his Workshop Lectures volume 6 gives a nice run-through of the sanrensei, and ideas about playing it and countering it. According to his instructions, falling back on the right would be small, and it makes sense. I would be developing one wall while white was spread well across two. So I'll pincer as severely as possible to expand. His 'simple and happy' response for white is to take the corner, because it's fair compensation. If you do that, I'll seal you in. If I did a wider pincer, you could take the corner and not quite be sealed in, which is why this move is where it is specifically. Jumping out is also an option, but there's obviously a lot more complication possible.
Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:22 am
by Mezzanyne
$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1
Well I hate how this looks....
$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1And this looks even worse;
$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1So I'm going with the lesser of three evils here.
Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:30 am
by Chew Terr
$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1Despite how imposing it looks, your first diagram is EXACTLY what Mr. Yang recommended as his first suggestion. This is definitely playable too, but it'll be more fighty. My move here probably requires little to no explanation. Just shoring up weaknesses. As far as your next move, you can counter-pincer, keep jumping, or cap at M15. The cap in particular I remember Mr. Yang recommending against, because after I defend my top group, my stones make territory/useful frameworks, and yours end up filling mostly neutral spaces without real eyeshape. I don't remember the 'right' answer or answers, but I would probably counterpincer because I loves me some fighting. I've been yelled at at club for countering too aggressively and hurting my pincered stones, though.
Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:47 am
by Mezzanyne
$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1I'd love to see Mr. Yang's follow ups when W ducks into the corner like that...but anyway, there's no local or full-board sense in jumping and giving you more strength, so I'll just make a wall. I'm sure only pros could complain about my result
Re: Chew vs Mezzanyne: Opening Practice
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:37 am
by Chew Terr
$$Bcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11Basically, Mr. Yang's suggestion was 'This corner is good enough, let's do the same on the bottom and be content so far!' So, one of the lessons I learned from both that book and the intro to one of Takemiya's, is that 'playing for the middle exclusively is inefficient. If your opponent resists your attempt too hard, you end up with too little of the middle, so you should be content to take cash when this happens, and change hour framework game into a cash game. I will attempt to do the same here, a bit. Fair warning: I may be mangling the contents of that book, as I haven't opened it since we started playing, but I'm trying to stay as true as I can to the basic ideas.
$$Bcm11 Threatening 'a'.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm11 Threatening 'a'.As I said, when I am resisted too strongly, I should be content to take as much cash as possible. This, rather than being inconsistent, seems to be part of the goal of the sanrensei. Flexibly have options between an intimidating framework and a lot of potential territory if forced. As such, I will threaten to connect underneath to my stone, while going along ways towards sealing off the corner. I THINK that this is a variant mentioned in that book, but again, it's been too long for me to be confident.
Anyone can feel free to correct/suggest alternatives for this move, as I'm far from sure it's the right idea. I am, admittedly, not positive on the proper followup for white, though I would personally play outside, force the connection underneath, and try to build influence for a framework on top.
is an interesting idea as well. To rephrase it slightly, if White plays in the opposite diagonal corner, Black has all the information he needs on move 3 about the two adjacent corners to his move. But if White plays in a corner adjacent to 
, Black is forced to place a stone in a corner without White having committed to any one move in the empty adjacent corner. White can (theoretically) adjust his move to counter black's intentions.