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What's the best sequence here?

https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=4533

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What's the best sequence here?

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 4:22 am
by Kirby
Here is a position I came into during a game this morning. I am white:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 7 . 5 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
:b7: is something that's interesting to me. I don't get that response often. Here's what was played in the game:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 7 0 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 O X 8 X 3 . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 6 4 1 . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
In the game it turned out OK, I guess, but I have reason to feel that my play is not the best for a couple of reasons:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X W . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The move above feels great to play. That's why I wanted to play it. But is it really bigger than the area around 'a'? The reason I wonder is, as you can see in the diagrams above, I played two additional moves later to stabilize the three white stones on the left.

However, if I do not play the marked move, it seems easy to get an attack on the white stones this way:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X 2 . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O 3 . 4 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The second point that I wonder about is if it is worth it to atari, since it gets cut later anyway. In other words, how about this?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 O X . X 1 . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 4 2 O . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Above, I omit the atari. This prevents black's cut, and maybe gives me the choice as white to either atari or get sente on the bottom.

What do you guys think?

Re: What's the best sequence here?

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 4:26 am
by Kirby
One other thing that I forgot to mention:

Subsequently in the game, I played this to sacrifice the cutting stone:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X O . , . . . 7 . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
What do you think of the sequence above? I'm not so sure of it. It's possible that black got more benefit than white did. First, white looks a bit cramped. Second, pushing black from behind along the center seems to give good benefit to black...

What do you think?

Re: What's the best sequence here?

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:08 am
by Tryss
I would have blocked the corner:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X 2 4 , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O . 3 5 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Compare this to the standart joseki :
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X 2 6 , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . 4 X O 1 . 5 7 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Sure, J2 is annoying, but white can jump into the center or approach at O3

Disclaimer: this is only my (uninformed) opinion, and I would be glad to be contradicted :)

Re: What's the best sequence here?

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:17 am
by malweth
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 1 . X b . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 a . X O O . . c . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White has to come back and play 2 at some point anyway, this seems best to me. Bumping at a seems to help black settle. I also think b helps black too much. I would just extend to c. Something like d is left to ruin black's base... and you'll still have the peep at e (which is lost after White's b).

Re: What's the best sequence here?

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:17 am
by Kirby
@Tryss:
This still seems a little attackable:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X 2 4 , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O . 3 5 . 8 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X X . 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
But maybe your idea is best. It does give white more corner territory compared to the other sequence you showed, for example.

And, like you said, white can jump into the center in the picture above.

Re: What's the best sequence here?

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:20 am
by Kirby
malweth wrote:... Bumping at a seems to help black settle...

I suppose that could be true. I felt that playing at 'a' gave black worse shape than the proposed alternative, but maybe this is not as valuable?

Re: What's the best sequence here?

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:25 am
by malweth
Kirby wrote:
malweth wrote:... Bumping at a seems to help black settle...

I suppose that could be true. I felt that playing at 'a' gave black worse shape than the proposed alternative, but maybe this is not as valuable?
I'm never too sure about this stuff...
In the joseki, B usually takes White's 1 in my diagram, so this is good compensation. Also in the joseki, after this sequence, W to the right of (d) is no longer any good (B responds at (d) instead of one above that point), but it's otherwise unaffected.

The Joseki I'm thinking of:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 5 7 . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 9 1 4 6 . 0 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 O . . X X 1 , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . X X O O . O 2 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: What's the best sequence here?

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:50 am
by gaius
Your moves in the game look excellent to me. Since :w12: was sente, effectively you spent only one move (namely :w16: ) to defend the left side, and that move gives you a lot of strength also towards the top left. But mostly, you get to atari at :w14:, which feels great! After this sequence I would probably approach the bottom right corner at 'a'. The points 'b' are then miai for either making shape by sacrifing a stone or starting a fight.

No guarantees, but it feels good to me :D
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 7 0 b . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 O X 8 X 3 . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 6 4 1 . X O O . . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: What's the best sequence here?

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:13 am
by HermanHiddema
:w8: is good, it destroys black's shape, and is certainly better than playing 3-3.

:w10: is better than defending the corner. White can either take the corner or extend, so that side is not urgent, while these two stones are weak.

:w14: is absolutely the only move, black should not have let white play that, so :b11: and :b13: are wrong, the corner is not important at all right now.

I would prefer to play :w16: as a keima from :w14: towards the left, making shape while sealing black in.

Re: What's the best sequence here?

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:36 am
by Magicwand
how about below???
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 O X 8 X 3 . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 6 4 1 . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
FYI,
below shape is not good for white...
black can play strong and play a-b-c
white really dont have any solid answer to that simple sequence..
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X O b a . c . 7 . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: What's the best sequence here?

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:32 pm
by SoDesuNe
On GoSensation breakfast concludes the following:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . a . 1 . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
White needs to play 'a' or 'b' (defending the corner) before he tries to cut with F2.

http://www.gosensations.com/?id=2&serve ... ew_id=1076

Re: What's the best sequence here?

Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:25 am
by Kirby
gaius wrote:Your moves in the game look excellent to me. Since :w12: was sente, effectively you spent only one move (namely :w16: ) to defend the left side, and that move gives you a lot of strength also towards the top left. But mostly, you get to atari at :w14:, which feels great! After this sequence I would probably approach the bottom right corner at 'a'. The points 'b' are then miai for either making shape by sacrifing a stone or starting a fight.

No guarantees, but it feels good to me :D
...
Thanks for the commentary, gaius. I think I mostly agree, though, it does feel a bit bad to let black extend (though a fight can erupt).

Re: What's the best sequence here?

Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:28 am
by Kirby
HermanHiddema wrote::w8: is good, it destroys black's shape, and is certainly better than playing 3-3.

:w10: is better than defending the corner. White can either take the corner or extend, so that side is not urgent, while these two stones are weak.

:w14: is absolutely the only move, black should not have let white play that, so :b11: and :b13: are wrong, the corner is not important at all right now.

I would prefer to play :w16: as a keima from :w14: towards the left, making shape while sealing black in.
Thank you for responding. Thank you especially for the comment about :w16:. I really agree. This move did not occur to me at all during the game. I felt I had to help my left stones, but :w16: does that with much more energy than my move did, I think.

Re: What's the best sequence here?

Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:33 am
by Kirby
Magicwand wrote:how about below???
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 O X 8 X 3 . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 6 4 1 . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
FYI,
below shape is not good for white...
black can play strong and play a-b-c
white really dont have any solid answer to that simple sequence..
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X O b a . c . 7 . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Thanks for the comment, Magicwand. The interesting thing is, your proposed 'a', 'b', 'c' is exactly what happened in the game. Subsequent moves allowed for things to work out for me, but I think it's just because black made some mistakes later on.

:w16: is, of course, good, as Herman also suggested. I did not think of it during the game.

But let's suppose that, in the game, I missed :w16:. So here is the board position:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O B b . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O O . . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
What is the best for me to do here? Clearly, it was not good to play as I did during the game. It would have been better to play the :w16: that you and Herman suggested. But after I've made this mistake, how shall I recover? Simply the approach at 'a'? I think gaius suggested that. I like it better than my move for sure, but I feel bad if black gets 'b'...

Re: What's the best sequence here?

Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:34 am
by Kirby
SoDesuNe wrote:..

White needs to play 'a' or 'b' (defending the corner) before he tries to cut with F2.

http://www.gosensations.com/?id=2&serve ... ew_id=1076
Thanks, SoDesuNe. It would have been interesting if black had played that way.
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