Life In 19x19

I played a game today, and after the fuseki I thought I was behind, but something possessed me to count, and when I did, I discovered that I was in fact ahead. It really helped me to decide on my next moves, and I went on to win rather easily.

As you might guess, I don't count very often, and often have no idea who is ahead until the result is displayed (on KGS). How about you? Is it your habit to count or not to count?

I generally don't count in online games (but I should). I still seem to know wether I'm ahead or not, but probably not with a 100% accuracy. My game results are generally close to what I guesstimate in the late midgame.

I sometimes count some territories to help this estimate, though.

In tournament games, I try to count more seriously, but it's hard to do during the middlegame, so many "territories" can still be invaded, generally when I don't expect it.

I count only in tournament games and only if I feel it's a close game. If there is at least one dead group, I count wrong. Otherwise, I may occasionally count correctly. But then the correctness of my decision based on the counting result is randomly distributed.
All in all, I can say my counting is as good as "I don't count".

It takes a fair amount of practice before your count is meaningful. For a long time, my count was accurate to +/- 20, i.e., horrible. Nowadays, it's usually within +/- 5. I went through a faze of fanatically counting, and I don't do it so much anymore. But I think all that practice improved my estimation without counting-- I don't *need* to count as many positions as I used to.

Edit: and, annoyingly, when I'm counting now, many times it's to evaluate the result of ignoring a ko threat and winning the ko (or the other way around), which requires reading ahead and then counting various areas of the board multiple ways.

what do you mean by counting?? does evaluating position during fuseki count as counting?
if so, on a seious game i count more than 30 times.

daniel_the_smith wrote:It takes a fair amount of practice before your count is meaningful. For a long time, my count was accurate to +/- 20, i.e., horrible. Nowadays, it's usually within +/- 5. I went through a faze of fanatically counting, and I don't do it so much anymore. But I think all that practice improved my estimation without counting-- I don't *need* to count as many positions as I used to.

Edit: and, annoyingly, when I'm counting now, many times it's to evaluate the result of ignoring a ko threat and winning the ko (or the other way around), which requires reading ahead and then counting various areas of the board multiple ways.

I'm similar...If it's a serious tournament game (with time controls that allow), I will count several times trying to be as accurate as I can, and adjust accordingly. When I play an online game, I may do a rough "approximate with rectangles" count once or twice trying to get to +- 5 points resolution, repeat as often as time allows. That tells me if it's a close game, I can relax, or I need to try something drastic. If it's a close game I'll go back and do a more precise count.

Counting not only helps me get a clearer idea of what's going on on the board, but also helps me take the game I'm playing more seriously and make less blunders. It also helps you save time by resigning games you've already lost but can only be determined by counting. I always try to count a few times when I play online.

A question that should be added: How long do you need for your best-resolution count?

I count many times in serious games but get carried away in online games far too often. While I count fast enough to count in byoyomi (20 moves / 5 minutes), I can't keep and modify the result and have to count again after some moves. That makes continuous counting impossible and counting in japanese style byoyomi difficult.

It takes me two to four 30 second byo-yomi periods to count, if I don't lose track partway through...

I pretty much never do global counts. I do some local counting in the endgame and during ko-fights. But why would I count globally? It's not like I'd say "no" to a fight, even when ahead.

Yeah, "counting in the fuseki"... no way. I do count in the end game, though, which is starting to allow me to play more cautiously.

jts wrote:Yeah, "counting in the fuseki"... no way. I do count in the end game, though, which is starting to allow me to play more cautiously.

actually i think counting in fuseki is one way to sharpen your evaluating skill.
i do that on every unexpected move if it is a serious game.

Magicwand wrote:what do you mean by counting?? does evaluating position during fuseki count as counting?
if so, on a serious game i count more than 30 times.

Yeah, sure it does. In fact, having observed you do this is one of the things that made me try it. In the case of my game today, the evaluation showed that my "feeling" was wrong. My count may not have been accurate, but for the first time I experienced what everybody always says about counting, that it can help you decide your strategy. For me quite an eye-opener.

IMO counting in the endgame is kind of like closing the gate after the chickens are out. There's nowhere to create confusion and try to get more points, so even if you're behind you can't do much about it.

Do people who recommend counting during fuseki do it by intuition (i.e., you just sort of intuit which territory is definite, maybe, and potential, and then count it), or by some sort of algorithm (i.e., "every intersection within three spaces of one of my stones is potential territory")?