Life In 19x19

Hi,

I think one of the biggest hurdles for improving is that I'm way too undisciplined (one could even say lazy) about reading and thinking in actual games. I played a lot of faster intuitive games when I learned the game and now have problems to take my time to think.

Although I *can* read a few moves deep (I'm still trying to improve breadth since I prune too much) and have a high success rate when doing simple tsumegos (i.e. Graded Go Problems Vol 3, >90% correct), I often don't do it.

Please, no discussions about "then why do you play go?". I play go for fun but I think that I could have more fun (in the sense of a better game with fewer mistakes) when I successfully fight my bad habit. But knowing and doing are two different things

So, what are your strategies to fight a bad habit (in general) and especially not thinking/reading enough?

Cheers,
mic

A good way for online games is to take your hand far from the mouse after making each move and don't touch it again until you make up your mind where to move with a reasoning.

I seem to think this particular type of question is rather boring.... (=


But seriously -- I have the same issue. I think a lot of it is patience (or lack thereof). I've gone on record a couple times hoping for a reverse byo-yomi time system (where I have to wait 20 seconds every move before I'm allowed to play). For a while when playing online I would try to do things like set the mouse behind my computer after I make a move (that way I have to think, then reach behind the computer to pick the mouse up and move it back, then make a move). A slightly less severe option would be simply flipping the mouse over. The real life analogue that gets suggested every once in a while is setting your bowl on a different table from the one you are playing at (again operating to the same effect). At the end of the day though I feel like all of this is more or less training wheels skirting around the real issue though of how to make yourself slow down in a game. I've heard some people go through a checklist every single move (whether they need it or not). I've also heard suggested to always read out until you reach a move you're unsure of (again, even if it's an obvious response like connecting atari, or answering a ko threat). Personally, even when I don't go to the extremes mentioned earlier, I still settle for something physical -- a cup of tea will keep my hand occupied for a bit and force me to think...

I just wish the extra thinking time would help me come up with better moves.

Mef wrote:<Paragraph>

Ah, somehow when writing this response I forgot to mention the age-old tried and true method -- Sit on your hands (=

@Mef,

as you correctly mentioned all these things fight the symptoms but not the disease. Although I'm quite disciplined in other areas of life (sports, work, ...) I somehow cannot manage to force me to think more (constantly).


@Helel,

That's what I tell myself since the early DDK days. With a bit more tsuemgo training I could read better and *then* I will use it. Actually, even as a DDK, you *could* read as far as I-play-here-where-does-my-opponent-play-and-how-does-it-look (modulo branching/pruning/evaluation problems).


- mic

Mef wrote:I seem to think this particular type of question is rather boring.... (=

It might, but for me it's quite important at the current state of my go carreer.

- mic

mic wrote:@Mef,

as you correctly mentioned all these things fight the symptoms but not the disease. Although I'm quite disciplined in other areas of life (sports, work, ...) I somehow cannot manage to force me to think more (constantly).

I think to an extent, some of these things can act like training wheels on a bicycle so to speak. Training wheels are a device that merely fights the symptom (the bike falling falling over) until you have the control needed to not need them any more (and then at some point even if they are there, you are no longer actually using them for stability). Likewise, I think (in spite of how philosophically unappealing they may be) some of these "tricks" can help even if they don't directly hit at the root cause (=

There's the old saying/joke about how you are two stones stronger when you kibitz...I think part of that is being removed from the flow of play forces you to look at the position longer, whether you want to or not (of course there are other reasons it might be easier to see moves when kibitzing too, but I think this is at least one of them)...Hence introducing artifacts to remove some of the flow control in your own games might help force you (or at least encourage you) to study a position longer.

The diagnosis is always the first step...

Play slow games. Find someone you don't want to lose against.

Hmm, you didn't specify if this is a problem you're dealing with online, in club games, and/or in tournaments.

tapir wrote:Find someone you don't want to lose against.

To be honest I don't know anyone whom I *want* to lose to Do you?

- mic

Araban wrote:Hmm, you didn't specify if this is a problem you're dealing with online, in club games, and/or in tournaments.

Oh sorry. It's a problem when playing online. I've never been to a tournament (yet) and the only real life games I play are against a friend of mine whom I can give nine stones (although he's improving) and still play quite fast.

- mic

A lot of these suggestions are physical. Sitting on your hands, holding a cup, keeping your hand off the mouse...while I don't think these are necessarily bad suggestions, I do think it's a bit excessive. I used to also have the same problem of playing too fast and relying too much on intuition and feel. What helped me change that was my first experience on Tygem. When I saw the 9-dans play there, I immediately noticed that they frequently used every last drop of their byoyomi in their games, whether it was 20 or 30 seconds long. Even in positions where there was only one obvious move, the player would still at times wait until the last second before making their move.

I don't know why, but I found this a little awe-inspiring. Even in online games, these strong amas/pros are very strict in how they use their time. This in turn motivated me to try and emulate what they do. When it's my turn and I'm in byoyomi, I mentally place my intuitive move on the board and try to come up with a better move. Near the final seconds, if I can't and I'm reasonably confident I can't find one, I just play it. If I'm still not sure, I play a time tesuji. Even when the move is plain-as-day obvious like taking back the ko of a big ko fight, I try to do this. I can't say with confidence that I've dramatically improved from all of this, but I do like to think that my games look a lot better now; at the very least, they are more meaningful to me. And yes, I do leave my mouse hand on my mouse.

tl;dr: Find motivation and it won't feel like you're being "forced" to read and think.

Araban wrote:A lot of these suggestions are physical. Sitting on your hands, holding a cup, keeping your hand off the mouse...while I don't think these are necessarily bad suggestions, I do think it's a bit excessive. I used to also have the same problem of playing too fast and relying too much on intuition and feel. What helped me change that was my first experience on Tygem. When I saw the 9-dans play there, I immediately noticed that they frequently used every last drop of their byoyomi in their games, whether it was 20 or 30 seconds long. Even in positions where there was only one obvious move, the player would still at times wait until the last second before making their move.

I don't know why, but I found this a little awe-inspiring. Even in online games, these strong amas/pros are very strict in how they use their time. This in turn motivated me to try and emulate what they do. When it's my turn and I'm in byoyomi, I mentally place my intuitive move on the board and try to come up with a better move. Near the final seconds, if I can't and I'm reasonably confident I can't find one, I just play it. If I'm still not sure, I play a time tesuji. Even when the move is plain-as-day obvious like taking back the ko of a big ko fight, I try to do this. I can't say with confidence that I've dramatically improved from all of this, but I do like to think that my games look a lot better now; at the very least, they are more meaningful to me. And yes, I do leave my mouse hand on my mouse.

tl;dr: Find motivation and it won't feel like you're being "forced" to read and think.

I think this is a simply fantastic story, I am not sure the example of pros in byo yomi applies directly to his problem, but your advice re not playing the instant move till you think a bit is great.

The story reminds me of a true but counter intuitive maxim of mine - More people lose blitz games by playing too fast than by playing too slow.

Magicwand once mentioned on here that he sits on his hands.

I often get up, get a glass of water, stretch, whatever, and come back to the board with fresh eyes. (Hopefully.) You can also try to read out three or four stones deep before you play a stone, even for "obvious" sequences". In fuseki you can try to make a point of considering every reasonable big move; before starting a joseki, try to think of at least two other options.

What Helel says really strikes me as true. It would seem that if you practicing counting or reading ladders (two things I've been doing recently) you would spend less time doing those things in games, but in fact even though I'm quicker I do it more slowly.