tsumego from KGS

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cyclops
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tsumego from KGS

Post by cyclops »

Today I watched an exiciting game on KGS between twoeye(7d) and iKGS5dan(6d, black), the sixth one in a series.
The position after b213 is. The question is who wins in the upper right corner.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O X . b a B . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . O O X . O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . O O X X X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . O X O O X X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O X O O O O . X O O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . O X X X O O X X X X O . . |
$$ | . X O X . X X O X X X O O O O X X . . |
$$ | X O O . X O . O O O X X . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X . O X X . O X X . X O O O . O . . |
$$ | X . X O O O O O X , X . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X O O X . . . X X O O X . |
$$ | . X X X X O X . O . . X X O X X O . . |
$$ | . . X O O X X . . O . X O O X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X X . O O . O O X X X . |
$$ | . . O . O X X O . X X O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . O O , O X . O X O O O . O O O O X . |
$$ | . O X X X O X X X . . X O X . X X O . |
$$ | . X . O O O O O X . . O X X . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Next W exchanged a for b and then the game proceeded as follows
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . O X . 1 . X 9 . . |
$$ O O X . O O X O . 2 . |
$$ O X X X . . X O . . . |
$$ X O O X X X X O . . . |
$$ X O O O O . X O O . . |
$$ X X O O X X X X O 5 . |
$$ X X X O O O O X X 7 . |
$$ O O X X . . . O X 6 . |
$$ X X . X O O O . O 3 8 |
$$ X , X . X X O , O 4 . |
$$ O X . . . X X O O X . |
$$ O . . X X O X X O . . |[/go]
Soon W lost the semeai and the game. I think the initial exchange is the losing move. See the hidden part.
Without the exchange:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . O X . . c X 1 2 . |
$$ O O X . O O X O 6 O . |
$$ O X X X . . X O . a b |
$$ X O O X X X X O . 4 . |
$$ X O O O O . X O O 3 5 |
$$ X X O O X X X X O X . |
$$ X X X O O O O X X X d |
$$ O O X X . . . O X O . |
$$ X X . X O O O . O . O |
$$ X , X . X X O , O O . |
$$ O X . . . X X O O X . |
$$ O . . X X O X X O . . |[/go]
White has miai a and b for two eyes and miai c and d against two eyes if he had omitted the initial exchange
Correct?
edit: corrected a typo
Last edited by cyclops on Fri Nov 25, 2011 5:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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AVAVT
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Re: tsumego from KGS

Post by AVAVT »

cyclops wrote:
Without the exchange:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . O X . . c X 1 2 . |
$$ O O X . O O X O 6 O . |
$$ O X X X . . X O . a b |
$$ X O O X X X X O . 4 . |
$$ X O O O O . X O O 3 5 |
$$ X X O O X X X X O X . |
$$ X X X O O O O X X X d |
$$ O O X X . . . O X O . |
$$ X X . X O O O . O . O |
$$ X , X . X X O , O O . |
$$ O X . . . X X O O X . |
$$ O . . X X O X X O . . |[/go]
White has miai a and b for two eyes and miai c and d against two eyes if he had omitted the initial exchange
Correct?


Quite interesting :lol:
I'm at work right now can't really read this till the end but what say you against this?

Without the exchange:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . O X . . . X 1 2 . |
$$ O O X . O O X O . O . |
$$ O X X X . . X O . . . |
$$ X O O X X X X O . 3 . |
$$ X O O O O . X O O . . |
$$ X X O O X X X X O X . |
$$ X X X O O O O X X X . |
$$ O O X X . . . O X O . |
$$ X X . X O O O . O . O |
$$ X , X . X X O , O O . |
$$ O X . . . X X O O X . |
$$ O . . X X O X X O . . |[/go]

Quick glance I think b still win.
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cyclops
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Re: tsumego from KGS

Post by cyclops »

AVAVT wrote:Quick glance I think b still win.


Your quick glance is probably worth more than my extensive glance. But it seems your refutation is correct.
So the verdict is that black lives after his initial hane at move 213 and has a won game.
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ez4u
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Re: tsumego from KGS

Post by ez4u »

cyclops wrote:
AVAVT wrote:Quick glance I think b still win.


Your quick glance is probably worth more than my extensive glance. But it seems your refutation is correct.
So the verdict is that black lives after his initial hane at move 213 and has a won game.

Maybe not. If White starts on the other side with the hane of :w2:, can Black kill White without a ko? Something like the below looks complex. What is the correct outcome in the corner? Also, if both sides live, who wins the game?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . O X . 1 . X . 9 . |
$$ O O X . O O X O 5 6 . |
$$ O X X X . . X O 7 8 . |
$$ X O O X X X X O . . . |
$$ X O O O O . X O O . 0 |
$$ X X O O X X X X O 4 . |
$$ X X X O O O O X X 2 . |
$$ O O X X . . . O X 3 . |
$$ X X . X O O O . O . . |
$$ X , X . X X O , O . . |
$$ O X . . . X X O O X . |
$$ O . . X X O X X O . . |[/go]
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HermanHiddema
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Re: tsumego from KGS

Post by HermanHiddema »

Why throw in at all? Why not block at R19?
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Re: tsumego from KGS

Post by cyclops »

Go is so easy. Just block as Herman proposes and Black is finished, isn't he?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . O X . . . X 1 . . |
$$ O O X . O O X O . . . |
$$ O X X X . . X O . . . |
$$ X O O X X X X O . . . |
$$ X O O O O . X O O . . |
$$ X X O O X X X X O 4 . |
$$ X X X O O O O X X 6 . |
$$ O O X X . . . O X 5 . |
$$ X X . X O O O . O 2 7 |
$$ X , X . X X O , O 3 . |
$$ O X . . . X X O O X . |
$$ O . . X X O X X O . . |[/go]

B can choose between two evils i.c. one eye versus two eyes or no eye versus one eye

Some gossips about iKGS5dan(6d, black). He appeared some 3 days ago on kgs and played about 80 games since then. He favours to start as black with two 6-4 moves and a move in the center. Rumours are that he changes his nick as soon as his bad habits gets known. Such as. Unprepared dans he tries to play with too high unfavourable handicaps. If his opponent claims a misclick we get:

iKgs5Dan [7d]: no undo when 3s/move
yakito [1k]: :D

iKgs5Dan [6d]: no undo
MrHyphen [5k]: lolz

Often he claims a misclick and gets away with it. If the opponent refuses he escapes.

hellabryan [?]: if it's a misclick w wouldnt undo then he just got a taste of his own medicine from a few games ago
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