Life In 19x19

Posted: **Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:53 pm**

So this is a little unusual and I actually have 3 games. I got automatched against the same guy 3 times in a row. I was black all three times. I did the same opening all 3 times. He was better at L&D than I was, and wasn't afraid to push the game to be as complicated as necessary to make use of that strength. On my part, I decided not to back down and so we spiraled into whole board fighting. I lost the first two and then finally won the third.

I'm primarily interested in the openings and the initial fight. Most of them ended up getting me in to some trouble, so if I'm overplaying I'd like to know. Or if it's just a matter of actually killing things and not getting pushed around that'd be good to know, too.

Posted: **Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:35 pm**

Game 1:

Everything is pretty good up until you play 73, after which you quickly submit to all white's attempts to cut you, even helping him by creating more cutting points that you make no attempt to defend. Whilst the opening and early middlegame have their share of mistakes, you did just fine out of them, and I think this would have decided the game if you hadn't died on the bottom.

On that note, perhaps 171 at G2 makes good enough shape to not die horribly.

Game 2:

7: Not very normal, probably because black gets pushed low on the bottom side even though that's the side he wanted to develop.

15: The cut at P5 is normally the strongest way to play. Unless the stone at J4 is a problem (which I don't think it is), consider it here.

23: May as well play L5, if you want to help this stone. That will more strongly cut white apart.

25: Perhaps J3 is good, helping your stones a little. If white connects, he is just pushing you to the centre.

47: Seems a little risky, after playing underneath, as now white can easily create two cutting points by playing at P16. Maybe you can just play here straight away, or maybe O15.

51: Usually a bad shape because it fixes white's cut without really gaining you much except sente. I think that remains true here. It seems that you are trying to kill, but trying by using shapes like this almost never works - the shapes give him too much to aim at, so you can't seal him in. Instead, playing Q10,P11,R12 would leave white's cutting point for him to fix, but you have better shape and aren't pretending you can seal him in.

55: Just too optimistic. When white simply walks out, black is left with stones that can be cut off for profit.

79: Turns out to be bad. Your opponent demonstrated sufficiently well.

Game 3:

19: A shape point, but maybe not the right one. O3 is an important point to break the ladder (even if you sacrifice that stone). The sequence O3 P2 R3 jumps out at me. The game result is quite poor.

Posted: **Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:16 pm**

Thanks amnal

amnal wrote:7: Not very normal, probably because black gets pushed low on the bottom side even though that's the side he wanted to develop.

What would be a better joseki here? Maybe double approaching the 4-4 stone to make some territory?

Posted: **Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:23 pm**

Numsgil wrote:Thanks amnal

amnal wrote:7: Not very normal, probably because black gets pushed low on the bottom side even though that's the side he wanted to develop.

What would be a better joseki here? Maybe double approaching the 4-4 stone to make some territory?

The double approach is quite common, as is taking the corner. There are also many other options, but those are the two most common.

It isn't really bad to play your move, but I think it's too lukewarm. The simple 'play on the second line' joseki is one for making a strong group, and so it is useful if you want to reduce a moyo or something. The reason it's not the best (in my opinion) is that making such a strong group is a bad plan when the bottom right corner is itching for further development. You don't want to make this further development overconcentrate you elsewhere.

Taking territory in the corner instead tends to leave white thickness, and then your lower-right development can become anti-thickness measures instead of overconcentrated-moyo failure. This is a bit of an exaggeration; your joseki has appeared in pro play in somewhat similar circumstances so it can't be that bad, but there must also be a reason that the other moves are favoured.

An example of another option (rare in pro play, but it's happened...which makes it fine in my book

) is to pincer white's own pincer instead of sliding into the corner. This starts a fight, and will be difficult, but it is a way to try to develop the lower right rather than being pressed down.

Posted: **Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:52 pm**

amnal wrote:It isn't really bad to play your move, but I think it's too lukewarm. The simple 'play on the second line' joseki is one for making a strong group, and so it is useful if you want to reduce a moyo or something. The reason it's not the best (in my opinion) is that making such a strong group is a bad plan when the bottom right corner is itching for further development. You don't want to make this further development overconcentrate you elsewhere.

Yeah, it makes total sense once someone points it out. White's stone is still floating, so a moyo isn't entirely out of the question, but low stones aren't helping that aim at all.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback. It's been quite helpful.

Posted: **Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:47 pm**

I really hate that "joseki". White has a lot of potential remaining in black's group, and black doesn't even have a real attack since white's one stone is so light.

Posted: **Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:58 pm**

On the subject of that joseki, how does black respond if white tries this? I've had this played against me more than once, and so on a whim I decided to try it against an opponent last night and he didn't have a refutation, either. The sequence shown here can't be good enough for black, and I don't see a way to both stay unsealed and keep local life. Or if this really is white's privilege I really don't like this joseki

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 9 . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , O . 7 5 6 O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 3 X 8 . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X 2 4 . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Posted: **Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:07 pm**

5@8 is better, and yes, this is white's privilege afaik. White can also choose to seal off the left with 1@7, b connects, 3@2. It's a crap joseki.

edit: I should add that white's shape is pretty bad after this, and black can exploit that, but ehh... I don't like it for black, even given that.

Posted: **Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:17 pm**

Opening remarks, game 1.

Posted: **Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:29 pm**

Some comments on game 2.

Posted: **Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:23 pm**

In the first game I think 7 is fine (though taking corner or double approach is more common), it is 9 which I don't like. I would rather make a counter-pincer at a or b as this works nicely with black 3-4 in the lower right. Also something to note is white answered low at c6 rather than the more normal d6, so that stone doesn't pressure black as much in the fighting to follow (and black can aim at c).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm5 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 2 , a b . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Regarding this joseki (with c6 high), I have heard it is no longer considered joseki as black is too low. It is reserved for special situations only.

Posted: **Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:43 pm**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Simple connection $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . 1 . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . 2 . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I don't know why nobody seems to mention this as a defense.

Posted: **Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:11 pm**

Bill Spight wrote:
I don't know why nobody seems to mention this as a defense.

Yes, it's connected, but the shape sucks and it feels like you got kikashid, though there is also an aspect of aji keshi to white's move. Blocking is the shape move and makes white's move bad shape. If you want to ensure connection at the cost of bad shape, I think the following is less bad (and has the bonus of reducing the size of white's yose at a).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Slightly better simple connection? $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . X 3 1 . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . a X . 4 . 2 X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I have to say that the cutting sequence given feels pretty ugly to me as white's shape sucks, black is alive and can immediately save his cutting stone at a, can aim at b and again the c yose is worsened. But set against these minuses is the pretty big plus that black's central stone got cut off, so it of course depends on the board position.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Ugly cut? $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . 9 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O 6 5 7 . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . 8 X 3 1 . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . c X . . 4 2 X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

The following sequence seems much more stylish and does actually appear in pro play, unlike that above. The point is a and b are miai, so white can either cut off the central stone or swallow to 2-4 stone for a large profit. If black blocks at b, white ataris at a and has cut off the central stone in sente, a huge improvement over the crude line.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Not so crude from white $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . a . . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . 5 X 3 1 . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X b . 4 2 X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

To make white cut the central stone in gote, black could play as below, but then his shape is much worse and he is not even locally alive (white can aim at a).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Black's shape worse $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 7 . . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . 5 X 3 1 . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X 9 6 4 2 X . a . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Posted: **Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:48 pm**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Slightly better simple connection? $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . X 3 1 . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . a X . 4 . 2 X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I originally planned to post this defense, but I figured that this gives White two kikashi for the price of one.

Posted: **Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:59 pm**

This cutting sequence, and black's bad shape answers to stop it, was the subject of some lively debate between some 5/6 dans at the EGC this year. So it's certainly non-trivial.

Life In 19x19

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