Life In 19x19

Posted: **Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:16 pm**

I've had a similar situation in two games, where other players suggested the below was the norm: to probe first on the other corner, and only then to follow the rest of the joseki.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Probe, then joseki $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . , 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Is this the best way? If so, how does the probe change the rest of the joseki?

If you want, you can see the rest of the game (where i neglected the probe) in the hidden:

Posted: **Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:52 pm**

Probing first certainly is one idea, but I doubt neglecting the probe is a big issue.

Posted: **Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:41 am**

These days the probe is normal in the absence of other positional factors. For example, consider the following diagram. Here the approach in the upper right is the first event of the game so there is nothing else of real significance on the board. Black approaches at :b5:

in order to get White to commit to a reply. If White replies with :w6:

, Black will :b7:

and extend to :b9:

. In this case White would rather that :w6:

were at "a", which would better support an invasion at "b". However, if White goes ahead and plays "a" instead of :w6:

, Black will switch :b7:

to "c" and only extend to "d" rather than :b9:

.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Current Standard $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , d . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Your game situation is different however because of the other stones on the board. The advice is actually incorrect. In this case it is naive to expect Black to continue with :b8:

at "a". That is too low and fails to make use of the marked stones. In fact Black will peep with :b8:

and, if White connects, then continue with :b10:

or "b". So in fact the pros do not play the probe in this position. Instead they connect immediately at 9 with :w5:

.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Probe, then joseki $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . a . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . B , . . . 0 b , 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 8 9 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Two more points from GoGoD:
* In the position below pros are twice as likely to approach with "a" rather than :w1:

.
* In the seventy examples where White does approach high at :w1:

, Black responded at :b2:

six times more often than at "b" and responded four times more often at "c" than "b" in order to capitalize on the presence of the marked stones. As always YMMV!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Probe, then joseki $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . B , . . . c . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 b . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: **Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:59 am**

illluck wrote:Probing first certainly is one idea, but I doubt neglecting the probe is a big issue.

Indeed. Here's a (commented) pro game in which the joseki occurs right at the beginning and the probe isn't played:

http://ranka.intergofed.org/?page_id=7003

Posted: **Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:08 am**

ez4u wrote:As always YMMV!

Phelan wrote:where other players suggested...

Phelan, what were their (approx.) levels?

Posted: **Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:28 am**

ez4u wrote:
$$W Probe, then joseki
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . a . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . B , . . . 0 b , 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 8 9 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Probe, then joseki $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . a . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . B , . . . 0 b , 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 8 9 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Interesting! If feel if I were black in this situation, I would be tempted to ignore the approach and take the cut:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Probe, then cut $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . B , . . . . . , 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 8 6 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Is there a particular reason this isn't good for black? The only thing I see is that perhaps the marked stones are a little too far away so it may be easier for white to activate :w1:

later. That or perhaps it goes back to the idea "If you wanted a formation facing the top like this, you play a different :b2:

"

Posted: **Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:35 am**

Dave, thanks, that's the explanation I wanted.

And the bit about the peep makes sense, I thought about it during the game, but it was never played out. I'll try and pay more attention to those approaches.

Ed: One was stronger than me, but I don't remember the level. The other was the 6k I lost to in the game above.

Mef, I always worry about the cut too, that's why I usually don't play the probe.

Posted: **Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:18 am**

Mef wrote:Interesting! If feel if I were black in this situation, I would be tempted to ignore the approach and take the cut:

$$W Probe, then cut
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . B , . . . . . , 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 8 6 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Probe, then cut $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . B , . . . . . , 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 8 6 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Is there a particular reason this isn't good for black? The only thing I see is that perhaps the marked stones are a little too far away so it may be easier for white to activate later. That or perhaps it goes back to the idea "If you wanted a formation facing the top like this, you play a different "

Playing 7 straight away is not necessary, and seems quite boring. It's backing down and saying 'sorry yes right I will live here slowly yes sorry'.

Instead, how about something more active for white? I have no idea what is best, but in the diagram below white is taking the initiative more. Black retains invasion points on the top side, and he can't easily develop the right side without leaving more such weaknesses.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Probe, then cut $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . B . . . . d . . . e X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . B , . . . . . , 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

7, a or b would be my immediate thoughts to try and wrest the initiative from black. I think this way is fine for both, but it wouldn't be if white just backed down.

If my opponent played c, I'd expect it to be hard to handle, so I've included it as a possibility. It seems like a hard way with many dangers, though, and perhaps outright bad.

d and e are where my eye is drawn to on the top. White can aim at these points later.

Posted: **Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:50 am**

As amnal says, white absolutely musn't save his stone with :w7:

immediately. To do so is going against the flow of the game: with white's probing approach he is asking black how to answer, in order to decide how to handle the top. If black doesn't answer white must press the advantage with a double approach (low looks best, I remember at the EGC this year in a similar sort of position Ko Juyeon 8p said "double approach never bad"). Maybe later white will save the stone that approached 3-4, or black will kill it whilst white gets big moves elsewhere. To save the stone in gote is like making a ko threat, your opponent ignores and resolves ko, and then instead of following up on your ko threat you answer the ko!

As Dave says, the presence of the 2 black stones on the upper side makes a difference here. One other possibility that I find appealing as black (to not dociley follow white's orders) is to pincer as below. As explained in Dave's first diagram, if you just finish the joseki then the :b6:

ends up slightly misplaced: white has successfully turned it into a slightly bad move. The thinking behind the pincer is that you are turning it into a good move as forms a good shape connecting the 4-4 stone to the pincer on hoshi. In the fighting that develops, white may well come to regret playing the approach at :w5:

and instead would rather approach at :b6:

to separate black's pincer stone from the 4-4. This kind of resistance and trying to turn your opponent's moves into bad moves and yours into good moves is the lifeblood of high-level Go.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Pincer $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . a X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . b . , 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 8 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Locally speaking, white should pressure the corner at a above as black didn't defend there, but the gentler b is also possible. Black's plan is to cut and fight if white plays a, as the black stones on the top side will help in the fighting to come. Something to note here is white doesn't play :w15:

as a hane at :b16:

, although it is sente and makes white have a little more eyespace, it also makes black's corner totally alive. In the position below white will probably play the a-b-c-d exchange soon as this makes e sente, which strengthens those stones considerably.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm9 Cut and fight $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 8 . b c | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . 9 . . 1 X . a . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . 3 2 X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 O X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 O e . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In fact I just did a database search of this side position (without even the black stones on the top side, the pincer is playable even without the that support) and white attached at a only 4 times, but played the knight's move at b 43 times, which seems to confirm the fight is good for black.

Posted: **Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:44 pm**

i will give you my opinion

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W playable and nobody loses so joseki $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . 9 . , 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 8 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm9 also playable but complicated can not say who is better $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 8 . b c | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . 9 . . 1 X . a . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . 3 2 X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 O X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 O e . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W black lost some point on this one. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . B . . . . d . . . e X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . B , . . . . . , 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W joseki but i like black better $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . a . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . B , . . . 0 b , 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 8 9 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B although played by professionals before but i like black better $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , d . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: **Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:47 pm**

This is a really interesting discussion. I have another suggestion. It's not necessarily better or worse than the suggestions above, just another possible style of play you could adopt. Also, I agree with Dave that the probe in the lower right (while it is a cool tactical idea) is weird in this opening. In this game white could just make the solid connection in the top right to limit black's potential at the top more and support an invasion later. There's no need to be fancy. You could go so far as to say that white's solid connection is the reason why black's attachment underneath isn't so great in this opening.

Some of the ideas below I learned from Go Seigen's book A Way of Play for the 21st Century. This isn't the exact position discussed though.

If the game goes like other people have been suggesting though, black can play more tightly, with :b1:

the diagram below. This anticipates that white will make influence and preemptively erases it. This strategy is possible in this opening because black has played tightly on both sides (look at the marked stones).

For what it's worth, I think white should play 'a', even with the looser pincer (then black can switch to the lower right). I think 'b' is something of an overplay and just gives black what he wants. I know I'd be happy if white played 'b'.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Even is conceivable $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . b X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . B . . . . a . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

If white goes ahead and attaches anyway, black can play the hane with :b6:

to take the corner territory with good aji. White's position hasn't improved much...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Overplay? Even is possible... How should white continue? 'a', 'b' or 'c'? $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 8 . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . c . 1 X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X . . . b . 3 2 X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 4 O X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

In the diagram above there's no totally satisfactory way for white to make shape now. I think the best white can do is 'a', because 'b' will lead to an unfavourable fight and 'c' is even heavier than 'b' (after black just plays 'a' - white 7 isn't an important stone).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc White wishes the marked stones hadn't been exchanged... $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . 4 2 O X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X . . . . a O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . b 1 X O X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

If white continues as above, the game looks a bit better for black because white played too many stones in the top right and black has already erased white's thickness, so can happily take gote profit with :b4:

. Note that 4 at 'a' looks like a good move, but it's not. White just plays the counter at 'b' and suddenly it's very hard for black to maintain connection along the top. That's because the 'a', 'b' exchange gives black shortage of liberties. Note that white now wishes that he could approach from the other side in the lower right. That exchange has turned into a bad move for white.

What if white fights though?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc White's resistance at 3 fails because of black's marked stone $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . B . 7 5 1 . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 8 6 4 2 X O X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

So white has to try something like this instead, but it's hard to play for a trade because white is heavy and black is flexible.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Black 'a' and 'b' are miai. $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . b . . . O X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . 1 . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X . . . O . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

It's true that this variation would work even better if the marked black stone was at 'c', but that's only because white repeatedly asked to fight when it wasn't appropriate for the situation. That's why white should just play the soft knight's move in the first diagram, and before that, the solid connection in the top right.

If white plays the soft knight's move, black will get sente and won't have any weaknesses, but if the marked stone was at 'c', white could look forward to invading around 'd' later and the game would be easier for white.

Posted: **Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:21 pm**

Just for info. In October, Cho Chikun played Kataoka Satoshi on Japanese TV in the NHK Cup...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Cho Chikun (White) - Kataoka Satoshi; NHK Cup 2011-10-02 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 6 . 8 . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . 4 3 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 5 X 9 X 0 1 , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Cho - Kataoka Continuation $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X 1 X . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O X X O , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I can't recall who the commentator was but he said that he had never seen the close pincer at :w1:

in the first diagram. GoGoD, however, tells us that it appeared at least twice before: in 1987 when Takagi Shoichi played it against Otake and in 2008 when Cho played it against Obunchi Morito. Interestingly enough in those two earlier games, Black did not respond locally...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Takagi Shoichi (W) - Otake Hideo; 13th Gosei 1987-10-22 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 , 0 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . 5 . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 . O . . . . . , O . X . X , O . . | $$ | . . 2 . . O . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Cho Chikun (W) - Obunchi Morito; 17th Ryusei broadcast 2008-06-20 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 4 5 . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 8 7 9 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: **Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:47 am**

ez4u wrote:Just for info. In October, Cho Chikun played Kataoka Satoshi on Japanese TV in the NHK Cup...

I can't recall who the commentator was but he said that he had never seen the close pincer at in the first diagram.

It was O Rissei 王立誠

: october nhk commentator; kai.jpg (32.05 KiB) Viewed 7979 times

Life In 19x19

3-4 high approach: probe, then joseki

3-4 high approach: probe, then joseki

Re: 3-4 high approach: probe, then joseki

Re: 3-4 high approach: probe, then joseki

Re: 3-4 high approach: probe, then joseki

Re: 3-4 high approach: probe, then joseki

Re: 3-4 high approach: probe, then joseki

Re: 3-4 high approach: probe, then joseki

Re: 3-4 high approach: probe, then joseki

Re: 3-4 high approach: probe, then joseki

Re: 3-4 high approach: probe, then joseki

Re: 3-4 high approach: probe, then joseki

Re: 3-4 high approach: probe, then joseki