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#162 - topazg vs sur

Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:54 am
by topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Let's play :)
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


sur gave me the choice of even or a handi game, so I tossed a coin and it came up even. Which means, nigiri time :)

46

Re: #162 - topazg vs sur

Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:11 am
by Sur
Hi, let's enjoy a great game! I guessed even, so I go first.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Let's play :)
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #162 - topazg vs sur

Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:30 am
by topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: :w100: :b100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
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$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Ok, so nothing special about this start particularly. I'm playing here to give myself an approach to any orthodox fuseki attempts, and to prevent the cross fuseki nonsense I have in my other game :P

Re: #162 - topazg vs sur

Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:41 am
by Sur
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: :w100: :b100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
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$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


According to our KGS ranks, topazg should give me 4 stones to make an interesting game. But I actually distrust KGS ranking system and I think topazg is much more than 4 stones stronger than me. The thing is, my strongest part of the game is fuseki. I suck at middle game and lose 10-20 points average in endgame. So I have to make a really good position in the beginning to even hope to put up a fight. I prefer chinese opening, but I think I have to try something more crazy than chinese to have a chance :-)

Re: #162 - topazg vs sur

Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:54 am
by topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: :w100: :b100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Let's try something a bit novel. I'm most likely going to work towards the top side with this move if he approaches, and ... I don't know what if he plays sanrensei, but I'll think of something.

Re: #162 - topazg vs sur

Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:33 am
by lecrop
Subscribed, watching and learning. Thanks for the game :tmbup:

Re: #162 - topazg vs sur

Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:39 pm
by Sur
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: :w100: :b100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I never played this before, trying something new. I was tempted to play C16 (I like playing tenuki from low approach to 3-4 stone), but I'm afraid topazg means to fight there with D14 and I probably can't hope to get a good result from a big fight.

Re: #162 - topazg vs sur

Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:04 pm
by topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: :w100: :b100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Mmmmm, was tempted to kakari in the top right, but if he pincers, I'm going to want both this point and the lower extension, so the timing seems better to play this now, and the lower right if he invades the left side - although I might approach his stone from the lower left corner first.

Re: #162 - topazg vs sur

Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:25 pm
by topazg
An example of what I was talking about in the previous post:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm6 Prisoners: :w100: :b100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . 2 . 1 . 5 3 . . |
$$ | . . a , . . . . . , . . . . 6 X 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . a . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


At the end of this sequence, I find myself wanting both "a" points, as they seem equally huge. However, not only is it Black's turn, but I feel hard pressed to respond to the top left and hold sente comfortably enough to take the lower side without feeling like I'll have suffered a local loss somewhere. If I pincer in the top left, he has a good chance of developing the top - if I don't, I'll probably have to take gote to settle my group. If I tenuki his top left approach completely, I'll most likely have a weak group when he follows up and have to take gote anyway, which means I may as well respond in the first instance.

So, if he wedges, I feel happy enough with this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: :w100: :b100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . 0 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Globally this makes me reasonably comfortable with the position. What I'm completely confused by is if he plays :b7: at :w10: (on the lower edge), where I'm going to be torn between a top right kakari and playing on the left side. Both feel really big, but allowing him to get both top and bottom extensions feels insufferable, even with such a good position on the left and sente. If only I knew what to do!

Re: #162 - topazg vs sur

Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:25 pm
by Sur
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: :w100: :b100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I was deciding between a, b and c. I've seen a in many strong ama/pro games and got a feeling they play it nearly automatically. He can choose from which side to approach, I will gladly take the other. Both look tasty. :-)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: :w100: :b100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . b . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #162 - topazg vs sur

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:14 am
by topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: :w100: :b100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 8 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Ok, I'm less interested in pressing :b7: now - now it's one further away, I may even approach it from the other side to make the most use of my shimari. I'll take the point I feel is biggest here first.

Re: #162 - topazg vs sur

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:20 am
by Sur
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: :w100: :b100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 8 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Random Number Generator

Re: #162 - topazg vs sur

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:27 am
by topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: :w100: :b100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 8 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Well, this is an interesting position. My top left is pretty safe, and the lower side is pretty urgent to continue with - especially this point. This all makes me think now is in a nice time to approach. I'll most likely approach the top right next.

I'm actually thinking Black's positioning of the last move rather binds his choices a bit. My extension along the top isn't that attractive right now, but removing his ability to extend towards my stones rather forces him to pincer if I approach in the top right:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: :w100: :b100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X . 4 . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This position is so uncomfortable I suspect Black will have to play the other side:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: :w100: :b100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X . . 3 . 2 . 6 4 . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . 7 X 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I would have thought it was easier for Black to play one square further away - not because he's too close to my thickness here, just that his options are less limited in the following position - for example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: :w100: :b100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . 7 . . X . 6 . 2 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . 4 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm actually feeling slightly positive about this game. It's still very unclear where it's going to go, and Black still needs to decide how to respond to my approach, which could change the way forward in the above diagram quite considerably. Either way, I'm looking forward to what comes next.

Re: #162 - topazg vs sur

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:42 am
by Sur
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: :w100: :b100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #162 - topazg vs sur

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:49 am
by topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: :w100: :b100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Mmmm, interesting. Is the corner enough? It's a pretty big profit locally if he lets me connect, and his last move seems totally out of place if he doesn't. If he does let me connect, he should get sente though - fascinating position!