Life In 19x19

The Cherio on the stone signifies the last stone played. There is a potential triple Ko here (I think?)

Is this a draw? Can someone win here?

This is the weirdest spot I've seen in a 9x9.

(Note: we're covering up part of a 19x19 board to get our 9x9, so the stones on the right are actually on the edge of the board)

No. W group has only 2 relevant los

I can only get triple ko, nothing better for either player if the other plays right.

Edit: Included shoddily constructed sgf. Position appears at move 47 on the second game branch.

Joaz Banbeck wrote:No. W group has only 2 relevant los

3, no?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm1 Starting position
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O B |
$$ | . O X . O O O X . |
$$ | . O X O O X X X X |
$$ | . X O O X X . X . |
$$ | . X X X O O X O X |
$$ | . . . X X O O O O |
$$ | . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------[/go]

I think white can live: make an eye in sente and then black can't fill the kos, so white kills from the outside:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm1 white wins
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . 5 O X |
$$ | . O X . O O O X . |
$$ | . O X O O X X X X |
$$ | . X O O X X . X . |
$$ | . X X X O O X O X |
$$ | . . . X X O O O O |
$$ | . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . X 2 X X X 1 4 |
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 . |
$$ -------------------[/go]

emeraldemon wrote:

$$Wcm1 Starting position
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O B |
$$ | . O X . O O O X . |
$$ | . O X O O X X X X |
$$ | . X O O X X . X . |
$$ | . X X X O O X O X |
$$ | . . . X X O O O O |
$$ | . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm1 Starting position
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O B |
$$ | . O X . O O O X . |
$$ | . O X O O X X X X |
$$ | . X O O X X . X . |
$$ | . X X X O O X O X |
$$ | . . . X X O O O O |
$$ | . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------[/go]

I think white can live: make an eye in sente and then black can't fill the kos, so white kills from the outside:

$$Wcm1 white wins
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . 5 O X |
$$ | . O X . O O O X . |
$$ | . O X O O X X X X |
$$ | . X O O X X . X . |
$$ | . X X X O O X O X |
$$ | . . . X X O O O O |
$$ | . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . X 2 X X X 1 4 |
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 . |
$$ -------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm1 white wins
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . 5 O X |
$$ | . O X . O O O X . |
$$ | . O X O O X X X X |
$$ | . X O O X X . X . |
$$ | . X X X O O X O X |
$$ | . . . X X O O O O |
$$ | . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . X 2 X X X 1 4 |
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 . |
$$ -------------------[/go]

Is it as simple as that? White has big shortage of liberty problems around D2, as per below. But I could be missing something obvious!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm1 This doesn't actually help white?
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . 3 O X |
$$ | . O X . O O O X . |
$$ | . O X O O X X X X |
$$ | . X O O X X . X . |
$$ | . X X X O O X O X |
$$ | . . . X X O O O O |
$$ | . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . X . X X X 1 4 |
$$ | . . . . . . . 2 . |
$$ -------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm1 This is a liberty county nightmare.
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . 4 O X |
$$ | . O X . O O O X . |
$$ | . O X O O X X X X |
$$ | . X O O X X . X . |
$$ | . X X X O O X O X |
$$ | . . . X X O O O O |
$$ | . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . X . X X X 1 3 |
$$ | . . . . . . . 2 . |
$$ -------------------[/go]

In the second case, I still keep getting triple ko. Even if white can get D2 and/or get an eye, black has a sort of eye around H9 because of white's inability to play F9 in proper sente.

Edit: I thought this worked, but even here it is triple ko but with the top ko moved a bit?

(Edit 2: It turns out that this doesn't work, as per below)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm1 This is a liberty county nightmare.
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . 5 . . 7 4 O X |
$$ | . O X . O O O X . |
$$ | . O X O O X X X X |
$$ | . X O O X X . X . |
$$ | . X X X O O X O X |
$$ | . . . X X O O O O |
$$ | . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . X 6 X X X 1 3 |
$$ | . . . . . . 8 2 . |
$$ -------------------[/go]

Arggh, you're right. I still think H2 might be the best move though:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm1 Hane
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O X |
$$ | . O X . O O O X . |
$$ | . O X O O X X X X |
$$ | . X O O X X . X . |
$$ | . X X X O O X O X |
$$ | . . . X X O O O O |
$$ | . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . X 3 X X X 1 7 |
$$ | . . . 4 5 6 . 2 . |
$$ -------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm8 Still good for white?
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . 2 . . 4 1 5 X |
$$ | . O X . O O O X . |
$$ | . O X O O X X X X |
$$ | . X O O X X 6 X . |
$$ | . X X X O O X O X |
$$ | . . . X X O O O O |
$$ | . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . X O X X X O O |
$$ | . . 3 X . X . X . |
$$ -------------------[/go]

Black has to make a lot of approach moves to win this...

emeraldemon wrote:Arggh, you're right. I still think H2 might be the best move though:

$$Wcm1 Hane
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O X |
$$ | . O X . O O O X . |
$$ | . O X O O X X X X |
$$ | . X O O X X . X . |
$$ | . X X X O O X O X |
$$ | . . . X X O O O O |
$$ | . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . X 3 X X X 1 7 |
$$ | . . . 4 5 6 . 2 . |
$$ -------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm1 Hane
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O X |
$$ | . O X . O O O X . |
$$ | . O X O O X X X X |
$$ | . X O O X X . X . |
$$ | . X X X O O X O X |
$$ | . . . X X O O O O |
$$ | . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . X 3 X X X 1 7 |
$$ | . . . 4 5 6 . 2 . |
$$ -------------------[/go]

$$Bcm8 Still good for white?
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . 2 . . 4 1 5 X |
$$ | . O X . O O O X . |
$$ | . O X O O X X X X |
$$ | . X O O X X 6 X . |
$$ | . X X X O O X O X |
$$ | . . . X X O O O O |
$$ | . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . X O X X X O O |
$$ | . . 3 X . X . X . |
$$ -------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm8 Still good for white?
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . 2 . . 4 1 5 X |
$$ | . O X . O O O X . |
$$ | . O X O O X X X X |
$$ | . X O O X X 6 X . |
$$ | . X X X O O X O X |
$$ | . . . X X O O O O |
$$ | . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . X O X X X O O |
$$ | . . 3 X . X . X . |
$$ -------------------[/go]

Black has to make a lot of approach moves to win this...

Yes, I think this works for white, it nicely combines two losing variations I had by playing the moves in the right order

"Liberty County Nightmare", now showing in a double feature with "Attack of the Mutant Spell Checkers".

Thanks guys, I was so confused I couldn't figure out what was the proper play by both players.