Life In 19x19

At moyogo.com you can buy moyogo for 27 $ - once again it's available. I wonder if Frank is planning to do some more work with MoyoGo in the future or if he just wants to make a quick buck for good . I liked moyogo and think it could have been a heck of a programm if worked on consistently.

I thought he had wiped out all his source code already so he's probably just selling the version which he had released as freeware a while ago. At one time, his site even said something like he wiped those freeware files to free up space for a new project and that he had moved on. Anyways, it's great to see such a good software being made available again for those who don't have it. Good luck to you if you are hoping for additional functions to be added to this program though.

tchan001 wrote:I thought he had wiped out all his source code already so he's probably just selling the version which he had released as freeware a while ago. At one time, his site even said something like he wiped those freeware files to free up space for a new project and that he had moved on.

But a "pro" would have access to wiped files on the last "long term keep" backup of his or her drives. So we simply don't know what is going on. Could always ask. I think you might be confusing what he might have available on his website with what he would have available somewhere.

I guess you're not familiar with the history, but Frank is quite special. When he says he's deleted all the old files, you shouldn't believe him, because he has a habit of making sweeping statements then taking them back, but you should really think that it's possible.

hyperpape wrote:I guess you're not familiar with the history, but Frank is quite special. When he says he's deleted all the old files, you shouldn't believe him, because he has a habit of making sweeping statements then taking them back, but you should really think that it's possible.

Exactly. One moment he gives MoyoGo away for free, the next he's sellin it, one moment he really did work and update MoyoGo, then he just let it go. It's sad, because though I think he's hot tempered (he said that he has a kind of disease that causes that stuff) I also think he may have a point that the traditional go-business world just didn't want to have extra competition and disadvantaged him. Best way (for me) would be to sell the source code of MoyoGo to another guy and he does continue the work.

It is still top go software on the market, so it is a good news that MoyoGoStudio is back.

Pippen wrote: Best way (for me) would be to sell the source code of MoyoGo to another guy and he does continue the work.

He has stated that the pattern matching part of the software has evolved into an unmaintainable state, and that he's using it as a black-box.
This may complicate matters.

I don't recall I said that, neither is it true. The pattern matching part is incredibly small, it's a few pages of simple code and it has never changed substantially.

I found the sources but I don't consider the project worth pursuing any more.

When I embarked on the project, I was very naive. I have Aspergers and I did not understand how neurotypicals think. My actions, which I considered totally ethical and the (only) right thing to do, were perceived as unethical, hence all of you boycotted the software and after a four-year struggle to explain my position, I finally had to give up. Those years I was working on the software, I was battling a very severe neuroborreliosis as well, which was sheer hell to go through with frequent hospital stays.

I now think that Go players are not worth my efforts. Go players like to live in a strict hierarchy and are generally not capable of thinking for themselves. I will under no circumstances ever release any part of my sourcecode, and I will never work on Go software again.

Nearly all of the Western Go world, nearly all of you here and elsewhere, you have worked very hard to get Moyo Go Studio eliminated from the world of Go software. After years of your attacks you finally succeeded - just after I finalized my designs for a TsumeGo solving module and a self-learning neural network (with an initial population of millions of neurons - radically different design using a genetic algorithm, learning from game records and playing against itself) for a Go playing engine. You made a major achievement in your efforts to prevent these plans to come to fruition because I am a persistent person. So: Congratulations - you fought long and hard and you eventually succeeded in destroying Moyo Go Studio.

FrankdeGroot wrote:[..]

I found the sources but I don't consider the project worth pursuing any more.

What a pity! (But I’ve never used your software, probably mainly b/c I’m a Mac guy, just found out about it through this thread.)

[..] My actions, which I considered totally ethical and the (only) right thing to do, were perceived as unethical, hence all of you boycotted the software and after a four-year struggle to explain my position, I finally had to give up.

Uhm, WOT? I’ve got no idea what this is about.

Those years I was working on the software, I was battling a very severe neuroborreliosis as well, which was sheer hell to go through with frequent hospital stays.

Ouch. Neuroborelliosis is really bad. I hope you’ve been able to contain it as far as possible, if not get rid of it.

I now think that Go players are not worth my efforts. Go players like to live in a strict hierarchy and are generally not capable of thinking for themselves.

Uhm, WOT?

I will under no circumstances ever release any part of my sourcecode, and I will never work on Go software again.

I may repeat myself, but … “Uhm, WOT?” I think I’m not the only one who has no idea what this is about. Care to elaborate?

Nearly all of the Western Go world, nearly all of you here and elsewhere, you have worked very hard to get Moyo Go Studio eliminated from the world of Go software. After years of your attacks you finally succeeded - just after I finalized my designs for a TsumeGo solving module and a self-learning neural network (with an initial population of millions of neurons - radically different design using a genetic algorithm, learning from game records and playing against itself) for a Go playing engine. You made a major achievement in your efforts to prevent these plans to come to fruition because I am a persistent person. So: Congratulations - you fought long and hard and you eventually succeeded in destroying Moyo Go Studio.

Uhm, …

I have no idea what happened, but it appears to me that you must have perceived whatever happened as a very severe thing.


Best wishes, Tom

FrankdeGroot wrote:...Go players like to live in a strict hierarchy and are generally not capable of thinking for themselves...

[admin]
Ahhh...if only this were true, then my job would be so easy.
[/admin]

Bonobo wrote:

FrankdeGroot wrote:[..]

I found the sources but I don't consider the project worth pursuing any more.

What a pity! (But I’ve never used your software, probably mainly b/c I’m a Mac guy, just found out about it through this thread.)

[..] My actions, which I considered totally ethical and the (only) right thing to do, were perceived as unethical, hence all of you boycotted the software and after a four-year struggle to explain my position, I finally had to give up.

Uhm, WOT? I’ve got no idea what this is about.

Those years I was working on the software, I was battling a very severe neuroborreliosis as well, which was sheer hell to go through with frequent hospital stays.

Ouch. Neuroborelliosis is really bad. I hope you’ve been able to contain it as far as possible, if not get rid of it.

I now think that Go players are not worth my efforts. Go players like to live in a strict hierarchy and are generally not capable of thinking for themselves.

Uhm, WOT?

I will under no circumstances ever release any part of my sourcecode, and I will never work on Go software again.

I may repeat myself, but … “Uhm, WOT?” I think I’m not the only one who has no idea what this is about. Care to elaborate?

Nearly all of the Western Go world, nearly all of you here and elsewhere, you have worked very hard to get Moyo Go Studio eliminated from the world of Go software. After years of your attacks you finally succeeded - just after I finalized my designs for a TsumeGo solving module and a self-learning neural network (with an initial population of millions of neurons - radically different design using a genetic algorithm, learning from game records and playing against itself) for a Go playing engine. You made a major achievement in your efforts to prevent these plans to come to fruition because I am a persistent person. So: Congratulations - you fought long and hard and you eventually succeeded in destroying Moyo Go Studio.

Uhm, …

I have no idea what happened, but it appears to me that you must have perceived whatever happened as a very severe thing.


Best wishes, Tom

Oh wow. I do believe it would be pretty hard to explain in a manner that both Frank and members of the go community that disagreed with him would be satisfied with.
The simplest explanation that I can give without getting into the discussion(which I don't believe is a good idea to start again), is that there were irreconcilable differences in Frank's attitude and ideas and other outspoken Go community members, that led to big fights.

Unfortunately, it means what you see above, that MoyoGoStudio (which was a pretty interesting Go study tool), is no longer legally available, and no longer developed.

If you truly want more details, send me a PM, since I don't want to reheat the discussion.

Phelan wrote:

Bonobo wrote:[..]

I have no idea what happened [..]

Oh wow. [..] getting into the discussion (which I don't believe is a good idea to start again) [..]

If you truly want more details, send me a PM, since I don't want to reheat the discussion.

OK then … never mind how curious I am, I think it may be better to decline … thank you, I guess it may be best to keep that little sad feeling in myself.

Cordial greetings, Tom

Phelan wrote:Unfortunately, it means what you see above, that MoyoGoStudio (which was a pretty interesting Go study tool), is no longer legally available, and no longer developed.

A correction to my previous post: MoyoGoStudio is is still available in the same place the OP mentioned, at the same price.

Sorry for the misinformation, it was what I thought was reality.

Frank, I'm sorry that you aren't able to understand why people responded the way that they did to the conditions you chose to set for the use of your software. I can only speak for myself but I did not consider you "unethical", that's not the basis of the disagreement between us.

Sorry, but I am able to think for myself. That we disagree about reality isn't an indication that my thinking process is inferior. Garbage in, garbage out, regardless of the logic circuits.

If you really did have a neural net taught to play go well it is a shame that development with this very different approach isn't continuing.

I apologize for the flame war in advance, but I can not let a MoyoGo thread go by without mentioning that anyone who enjoys this software should also buy a copy of GoGoD. Unless the collection of games distributed with MoyoGo has changed, most of the SGF files included are lifted from the GoGoD collection. If you are going to support MoyoGo, you should also support the people who put together the game database.