Life In 19x19

hey, a couple moves into this game i was warned that the guy i was playing was sandbagging and that his rank was actually closer to 6k, not sure if this was true (even though his rank graph says this is pretty accurate) because he made a stupid mistake and i killed a large group, comments welcome

15, 17, 19, 21, 23 <---i hope you know that these moves are all wrong.
just follow joseki then you will not loss points.

they do look rather iffy....what would be considered joseki here if i may ask?

Tyson2011 wrote:they do look rather iffy....what would be considered joseki here if i may ask?

15 is wrong because of wrong direction.
17 should have been hanne D13
19 should have been D13
21 should have been D11
23 should have been C13
27 is an ugly shape and aji keshi. i can not tell you what it should be but not 27

70% of your move lacks basic fundamental. i suggest you to review the stronger players game (like 5d or higher) and learn basic shape and joseki.
remember that if you dont play joseki then you leave yourself open to the loss of points.
i can go on and finish reviewing your game...but it would be pointless.

Magicwand wrote:70% of your move lacks basic fundamental.

Tyson, this may or may not make you feel any better,
but lack of fundamental understanding is very common for kyu players.
(In fact, it is perhaps the definition of kyu level .)
Also, this was a blitz game. You played your 105 moves in under 8 minutes,
or less than 5 secs/move. Unfortunately, because of your basics problems,
more time would not have helped you.
If you want to improve, you must study the fundamentals.

EdLee wrote:If you want to improve, you must study the fundamentals.

And to rephrase this sentence in something more applicable: I'd recommend to work your way trough "Get strong at Tesuji". You'll experience that Tesuji in this books means something much more subtle compared to Davies' "Tesuji".
"Get strong at Tesuji" deals with - among other things - tactical manoeuvre to get a thick position, to make bad shape for your opponent and good shape for yourself - in Sente (includes nice ideas for forcing moves to achieve this).
Furthermore the whole "Graded Go Problems for Beginners"-series contains a fair amount of middlegame problems, which are in my opinion very useful, because they seem very random but with a deeper understanding (sadly one the books don't teach), you can see the deep impact of those moves.

And yet something I'm going to verify for myself within the next week, I suppose: I've heard studying Joseki ("38 Basic Joseki") is useful to learn proper shape, because you'll get explanations why certain Josekis are played the way they are and thus understand the meaning of the moves.

thanks for the pointers guys, i really need to look into some books, as i cant say i've ever read a go book...

As EdLee says, you need to improve your fundamentals to become stronger.

Let's look at move 27 in depth. As Magicwand says, it is no good. But why not? Its time for a quick lesson in fundamentals.


Here is the basic shape, three in a row. How many liberties does it have?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . X . . . .
$$. . . . X . . . .
$$. . . . X . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .[/go]

If you count them, there are eight.

Now if we add the marked move below, how many liberties does it have?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . X . . . .
$$. . . . X 1 . . .
$$. . . . X . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .[/go]

Contrary to a beginner's intuition, this is not an improvment. There are still eight liberties. The down side is that black has spent a move, added one more stone to the potential victims, and has not made his group safer. ( All other things being equal, more liberties makes a group harder to kill )
The up side is nothing. No eye space, no inprovement in liberties.

There are other ways to improve the basic 3-stone group. Let's first look at the solid connections:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . X . . . .
$$. . . . X . . . .
$$. . . . X . . . .
$$. . . . 1 . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .[/go]

This increases liberties from 8 to 10. Unfortunately it is not a legal move for you here, but it is something to remember. Becoming a 4-stone wall is one of the things that a 3-stone wall wants to do. It wants to do that because it gains more liberties than any other solidly connected move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . X . . . .
$$. . . . X . . . .
$$. . . . X 1 . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .[/go]

This increases liberties from 8 to 9. It is not much of an improvement, but better than nothing.

Those ( and their mirrors and rotations ) are all of the possibilities for increasing your 3-stone group with a solidly connected stone. So now let's consider the moves further out.

We can't go too far away, for then the move can be separated, like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$. . . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . X . . . . .
$$. . . . X . 2 . 1 .
$$. . . . X . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . . .[/go]

The best moves are usually like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . X . . . .
$$. . . . X a . 1 .
$$. . . . X . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .[/go]

Or this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . X . . . .
$$. . . . X a 1 . .
$$. . . . X . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .[/go]

These tend to be best because they are close enough that they are hard for the opponent to separate, and the space around 'a' is starting to look like an eye. Usually the choice between the last two depends upon how congested the local area is. If there are lots of enemy stones nearby, play the second one because it is a stronger connection; if there are few enemey stones nearby, play the first one for it grabs more territory in the long run.

Note that the suggested moves are symetrical. There us a reason for that. We could play moves like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . X . 1 . .
$$. . . . X . . . .
$$. . . . X . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .[/go]

but they are not as flexible, for the opponent can destroy their potential eye space in one move like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . X . 1 . .
$$. . . . X . . . .
$$. . . . X . 2 . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .[/go]

...whereas the symetrical move has miai for eye space:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . 2 . .
$$. . . . X . . . .
$$. . . . X . 1 . .
$$. . . . X . . . .
$$. . . . . . 3 . .
$$. . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . .[/go]

If the opponent tries to destroy eye space on one side, we then start making eye space on the other side.

Thanks, Joaz, that post is very helpful.

Is there a website or book that focuses on what is, generally speaking, good shape? Or something with several examples of what Joaz just did? Of course, good and bad shape depends on the situation, but I think it would be helpful to study something like this to help get a feel for good and bad shape.

Caveat: I realize that good and bad shape depends a lot on the situation, and you naturally pick up what good shape is through playing and studying problems. But it would be nice to have something like this for a nice review.

judicata wrote:Thanks, Joaz, that post is very helpful.

Is there a website or book that focuses on what is, generally speaking, good shape? Or something with several examples of what Joaz just did? Of course, good and bad shape depends on the situation, but I think it would be helpful to study something like this to help get a feel for good and bad shape.

Caveat: I realize that good and bad shape depends a lot on the situation, and you naturally pick up what good shape is through playing and studying problems. But it would be nice to have something like this for a nice review.

Shape Up by Charles Matthews + Making Good Shape by Richard Bozulich and Rob van Zeijst. Study both of these books and you'll be in good shape.

BTW, there is an interesting inverse parallel between the idea of 'how a group wants to grow', as discussed above, and the idea of 'how to kill a group'.

Often, when a shape is a bad shape for your group that wants to live, it is a good shape for your group that wants to make his eye space ugly.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B This kills
$$. . . . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . . . .
$$. . X X X X X X X . .
$$. . X O O O O O X . .
$$X . X O X X X O X . X
$$. . . O . 1 . O . . .
$$--------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B This lets white live
$$. . . . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . . . . . . .
$$. . X X X X X X X . .
$$. . X O O O O O X . .
$$X . X O X X X O X . X
$$. . . O . . 1 O . . .
$$--------------------[/go]

I've never seen a proverb like this before, but there should be one: "Make bad shape inside his eye space."

Araban wrote: Shape Up by Charles Matthews + Making Good Shape by Richard Bozulich and Rob van Zeijst. Study both of these books and you'll be in good shape.

The perfect recommendation - a free book . Thanks.

"Shape up" is great for it's price, although a bit wordy. I'm struggliing through "Making good shape" now, a few problems each day and I find them hard. Some problems are "oooh, ofcourse" other are "meh, the opponent would never play like that". The book feels slightly beyond my abilities. But I'm lazy with problems, I want problems that I'm able to solve within 2-3 minutes, any harder than that and it feels like a burden. I read this book anyway since by it's nature I don't really need to solve the problems, if it's too hard I can just look at the answer and figure out why it's correct and remember it. Once I have seen the technique I can apply it, I don't feel I need to figure it out all on my own. Tsumego is different though, they work your reading and looking at the answer before making a serious effort would be pointless. That's my 4-5k take on it.

The book that no go player should be without is Kageyama's 'Fundamentals of Go'.

Araban wrote:Study both of these books and you'll be in good shape.

GAA!