Life In 19x19

I'm looking for two joseki items. First, the longest joseki. Second, only josekis with 65-moves or greater. I don't care whether the josekis are out of date. I'm really hoping for a 100+ move joseki.

The longest one that I have been able to find is 76-moves, stemming from the large avalanche.



Thank-you in advance.

-Logan

EDIT: Updated image file location.

Why?

If that's joseki, why can't I find it in any pro game in my database? (GoGoD from Dec 2009)

HermanHiddema wrote:If that's joseki, why can't I find it in any pro game in my database? (GoGoD from Dec 2009)

Pros don't play joseki. They just play good moves.

What a help you lot are. Sorry, logan, I don't know of any, but I'll be interested to see if anyone does, just for the entertainment value if nothing else.

p.s. This forum sorely lacks a graphic sticking-tongue-out smiley.

I am curious what the source of that "joseki" is.

I doubt if there are any actual joseki 65 moves long. I once played a very long joseki, and I seemed to recall that it was 45 moves long, but I haven't found it. I did find this joseki, however.

@logan,

Pros never play your 40 according to my database, instead always playing at 54.

I'm actually interested in the answer to this question, too. I'm working on something involving joseki and I've assumed that none go longer than 50 moves. This actually gets quite close to that maximum (pros agree on a further 9 moves after 39 above, just not the ones logan shows).

Well, I'm sure there are plenty of 50+ move variations on all kinds of difficult joseki. For example, you could try searching the Onadare, the Taisha, the magic sword, the 3-4 point low approach low 3-space pincer has a very difficult variation, etcetera. All you have to do is browse Kogo's a little (and that dictionary isn't even very complete).

But. What is the point? First, I cannot memorise these things anyways. Second, even if I would memorise something I'd be afraid I memorised it wrong so I have to read anyway. Third, there's no way my opponent plays the variation I memorised anyway. Fourth, I don't even know a lot of the basic joseki... So until I am 6-dan and want to prepare some tricky variation for use in the Dutch Championship, I'll stick with the Ishida. More than difficult enough for me .

Oh, and train your tesuji and tsumego skills, then you can invent cool josekis yourself. It's way more fun! But be prepared to spend more than half your thinking time on one joseki .

For my purposes, it only counts as a joseki if more than one pro has actually played it in a game.

For my purposes, it only counts as a joseki if it is good for me.

zecv wrote:For my purposes, it only counts as a joseki if it is good for me.

Doesn't that mean that your opponent made a mistake?

daniel_the_smith wrote:For my purposes, it only counts as a joseki if more than one pro has actually played it in a game.

Plenty of pros play moves that aren't joseki and are criticized for it. You can't go by what has been played in pro games a few times. Whether a move sequence is "joseki" or not is not an absolute thing but depends on the general judgement of pros and changes according to fashion and the discovery of new moves. That's why you can't trust dictionaries too much. Something might be considered joseki when the dictionary was written but then professional opinion changes a few years later. Of course, many "non-joseki" moves only lose a couple of points, which would be fatal for a pro but not for most amateurs. However, consider losing, say, three points per joseki "mistake" several times during a game. That could add up to over ten points difference, something that could fall within the range of a game changing mistake for amateurs.

And, by the way, too many people use the word joseki for any sequence of moves, ignoring the real meaning of the term as a sequence of moves generally considered (by pros) to give an equal local result.

gowan wrote:[...] ignoring the real meaning of the term as a sequence of moves generally considered (by pros) to give an equal local result.

The "equal local result" part is misleading (I would even question whether there is such a thing as a "local result"). "Joseki" just means "fixed stones", in other words, a known sequence that is under fitting circumstances playable by both players.

Harleqin wrote:

gowan wrote:[...] ignoring the real meaning of the term as a sequence of moves generally considered (by pros) to give an equal local result.

The "equal local result" part is misleading (I would even question whether there is such a thing as a "local result"). "Joseki" just means "fixed stones", in other words, a known sequence that is under fitting circumstances playable by both players.

Not only that, but joseki as a term has much wider meaning than just Go. It's meaning is closer to "routine sequence" as I understand it.