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#182 Nathan vs. lesenv
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:26 am
by lesenv
alright, i'm 9k on dgs, i choose 4 stones handicap.
$$Bcm1 Prisoners: none
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: nonelet's have a good game!
Re: #182 Nathan vs. lesenv
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:48 am
by Nathan
$$Wcm1 Prisoners: none
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: noneHave a great game!
Re: #182 Nathan vs. lesenv
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:22 am
by lesenv
$$Bcm2 Prisoners: none
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm2 Prisoners: none
Re: #182 Nathan vs. lesenv
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:04 pm
by Nathan
$$Bcm2 Prisoners: none
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm2 Prisoners: none
I am going to 3-3 and keep it simple. Take my territory now, and hopefully he wont be able to utilize his influence efficiently.
I expect the joseki below
$$Bcm2 Prisoners: none
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm2 Prisoners: none
Re: #182 Nathan vs. lesenv
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:08 pm
by EdLee
Nathan,
Nathan wrote: I expect the joseki below
$$Bm2
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bm2I doubt it.
Re: #182 Nathan vs. lesenv
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:30 pm
by The Intrepid
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:44 pm
by EdLee
Intrepid,
The Intrepid wrote: Your diagram is messed up.
That was his diagram; I just quoted it. He ninja'd it.
Re: #182 Nathan vs. lesenv
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:45 pm
by lesenv
$$Bcm4 Prisoners: none
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm4 Prisoners: noneoh, the first guests. i am already eager to read the comments.
Re: #182 Nathan vs. lesenv
Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:25 pm
by Nathan
$$Bcm4 Prisoners: none
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm4 Prisoners: none
Re: #182 Nathan vs. lesenv
Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:46 pm
by lesenv
$$Bcm6 Prisoners: none
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm6 Prisoners: none
Re: #182 Nathan vs. lesenv
Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:16 pm
by jts
Re: #182 Nathan vs. lesenv
Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:18 pm
by Tryss
Hehe
If white know this is an overplay and how to punish it, black is in trouble
Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:31 pm
by EdLee
For beginners,
Reference joseki (B extends at
, instead of lesenv's
hane in the real game):
$$B Reference Joseki
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B Reference JosekiSome variations following lesenv's
hane in the real game:
Inferior for W than Reference Joseki (
is submissive):
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$WPeaceful result:
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$WInferior for B than Reference Joseki (W counters the unreasonable
with
):
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$WInferior for B than Reference Joseki:
(B did this to himself with lesenv's
hane in the real game AND connecting at
here)
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$WMessy fight: (Both sides have to be careful, with many traps and pitfalls)
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$WTryss,
Tryss wrote: If white know this is an overplay and how to punish it, black is in trouble
Not exactly. One can regard
as a variation, with various results. (
happens in some pro games.)
Re:
Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 5:20 pm
by Tryss
EdLee wrote:
Tryss,
Tryss wrote: If white know this is an overplay and how to punish it, black is in trouble
Not exactly. One can regard
as a variation, with various results. (
happens in some pro games.)
I doubt a pro would play
with an empty board like here
And when I say "black is in trouble", it's because it's very easy for black to play like this (thinking "the cut will not work"):
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$WAnd here (with correct sequences), either white capture the 3 black stones, or white is outside to the left far better than in the joseki.
Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 5:24 pm
by EdLee
Tryss,
Of course, if B chooses to hurt himself.
Tryss wrote: I doubt a pro would play
with an empty board like here
Pros can be full of surprises: Nov 30, 1989. Cho Chikun 9p vs. Otake Hideo 9p:
( EXACTLY the same number of stones and just as empty as in the current game )
$$Wm10
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm10For beginners,
Tryss, I don't know about your experience with lesenv's
hane, so I cannot speak for you (or others),
but here's my own experience:
About 10 years ago when I was just starting, a 1d friend told me that lesenv's
hane is an overplay,
and showed me some variations.
Later -- a few years ago -- on this forum (with a previous domain name),
I even got into a very heated (read "VERY ugly") argument with another member here
about the same
hane, and how to discuss it with beginners.
At that time, my understanding was not unlike yours: that
hane is an overplay,
and that W can "punish" it, etc.
Since that time, I have a newer understanding, from discussions with a pro:
it's better to treat the
hane as a variation, with various results,
which is my current presentation to beginners, here in Post #13.
Tryss wrote: ...or white is outside to the left far better than in the joseki.
Not exactly. This is another thing I learned the hard way.
Yes, this is true at pro level. But for kyu levels, especially for Nathan's and lesenv's levels,
the difference is not so big. I myself have lost many games, in W's shoes, after capturing the lone
hane stone --
at these levels, the game is not decided here: not even close.
And it can be detrimental to think of
as an "overplay that can be punished."
-- That's my experience. Maybe Tryss and others have different experiences.
, instead of lesenv's 
hane in the real game):
is submissive):
with 
):