Life In 19x19

Posted: **Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:34 pm**

What is the most up-to-date english book? Is there any better book in another language, that I could decently read without knowing the language at all?

Also im interested in such things as probes to see how the opponent will respond before choosing a joseki that you often hear korean pros talk about

Example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: **Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:43 pm**

For the joseki book, I've replied you in a similar post viewtopic.php?f=15&t=7085

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

move number 2 is questionable, playing at a is much normal.

Here is the continuation. You can see the exact same pattern in many pro games played recently.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Sometimes also this one.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 O . 3 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Connection for the probe is considered inferior in modern research.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c inferior $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 , 5 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: **Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:24 pm**

NoSkill wrote:What is the most up-to-date english book?

Those published recently and having contents that is checked with databases.

Also im interested in such things as probes to see how the opponent will respond before choosing a joseki

Concerning early joseki probes, the best sources are fuseki books. The best books on strategic choices in joseki are those having such contents, except that fuseki books are a better source for early joseki probes. "such things as" is a wide field; please specify more clearly what else you are interested in.

Posted: **Fri Nov 02, 2012 4:09 am**

It's not the most up-to-date (about 10 years old) but [sl=ADictionaryOfModernFusekiTheKoreanStyle]this Korean style fuseki book[/sl] has a chapter on exactly that approach probe you asked about. Also I (and more importantly the many pros who have played it) disagree with rlaalwso that :w2:

is questionable. Certainly the shape he shows is the latest fashion, but I'm not aware (please explain the new judgement if I am wrong) that the outside approach is considered inferior.

There is also Takao's newer joseki dictionary, but that's just joseki not fuseki. I really like that Korean fuseki book and credit it with a large part of my fuseki understanding. I think it would be a good fit for the self-professed gaps in NoSkill's game.

Posted: **Fri Nov 02, 2012 4:34 am**

It is a good practice to complement a josekibook with a database of professional games of your own. It is very interesting to see what josekis are more popular and in what positions.

Posted: **Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:07 am**

Uberdude wrote:It's not the most up-to-date (about 10 years old) but [sl=ADictionaryOfModernFusekiTheKoreanStyle]this Korean style fuseki book[/sl] has a chapter on exactly that approach probe you asked about. Also I (and more importantly the many pros who have played it) disagree with rlaalwso that is questionable. Certainly the shape he shows is the latest fashion, but I'm not aware (please explain the new judgement if I am wrong) that the outside approach is considered inferior.

There is also Takao's newer joseki dictionary, but that's just joseki not fuseki. I really like that Korean fuseki book and credit it with a large part of my fuseki understanding. I think it would be a good fit for the self-professed gaps in NoSkill's game.

Oh really? I need to look over that book alot more

. I had been reading it for the sanrensei and low chinese stuff, was figuring to get to the mini-chinese, high chinese, kobyashi etc later. Didn't realize it has this in it as well, excellent.

Posted: **Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:13 am**

That book is NOT excellent. Its major weakness: For center influence positions, the move suggestions are suboptimal to weak. For high dans, the books tells almost nothing new. If you are aware of these limitations, the book can be useful - but why not read a book series without these limitations (Rin Kaiho)?

Posted: **Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:20 am**

RobertJasiek wrote:That book is NOT excellent. Its major weakness: For center influence positions, the move suggestions are suboptimal to weak. For high dans, the books tells almost nothing new. If you are aware of these limitations, the book can be useful - but why not read a book series without these limitations (Rin Kaiho)?

Can you give me a link to rin's book since you keep recommending it

?

Posted: **Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:15 am**

NoSkill wrote:
RobertJasiek wrote:That book is NOT excellent. Its major weakness: For center influence positions, the move suggestions are suboptimal to weak. For high dans, the books tells almost nothing new. If you are aware of these limitations, the book can be useful - but why not read a book series without these limitations (Rin Kaiho)?

Can you give me a link to rin's book since you keep recommending it ?

Its a 4 book fuseki dictionary series, not about josekis I guess:
http://senseis.xmp.net/?DictionaryOfBasicFuseki

Posted: **Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:21 am**

http://senseis.xmp.net/?DictionaryOfBasicFusekiVol1

Here is the link to the first volume, there are 4 in total.

Posted: **Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:04 am**

I second the motion on a database. But I have been a GoGoD junkie since 2002 (summer edition IIRC :blackeye:

). If you don't want to spend the money to buy all the updates, you can buy the current version for the 70,000+ game background and then add new game records from the internet to the database yourself. I find GoGoD much more informative and easy to quickly search than any of the books that I have. There is no commentary so you have to think about what you find there yourself. However, the most obvious thing that you will immediately realize is that there is much more variety and endless experimentation going on than any of the books can possibly describe.

Posted: **Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:04 am**

You could also get a Taiwanese edition in 2 volumes, if you could find it:)

Posted: **Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:07 am**

ez4u wrote:There is no commentary so you have to think about what you find there yourself. However, the most obvious thing that you will immediately realize is that there is much more variety and endless experimentation going on than any of the books can possibly describe.

Exactly. The strength and weaknesses of databases versus go theory books. Databases let you find everything if only you know what to search - go theory books (should) tell you what to know and search:)

Posted: **Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:33 am**

RobertJasiek wrote:That book is NOT excellent. Its major weakness: For center influence positions, the move suggestions are suboptimal to weak. For high dans, the books tells almost nothing new. If you are aware of these limitations, the book can be useful - but why not read a book series without these limitations (Rin Kaiho)?

I didn't think it had many centre influence moves, focusing as it does on the first <~50 moves usually around the corners and sides. Do you have some examples of these weak moves? One that springs to mind is the reduction after taking both corners in the san ren sei. Afaik this is a good move. Also what is your basis for saying it has weak moves? I don't know how strong the original author was, but the translator is stronger than you so would have thought not too many howlers would be let through.

I agree it won't help high dans, but for a 1d with 5k level fuseki, I think it's good.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Weak? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm interested that you recommend Rin's book, I've seen that around but not read it; I'll take a look sometime.

Posted: **Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:47 am**

Rin's book in Japan came out around the same time as Ishida's Joseki. Like Ishida's Joseki book being updated, Rin's was updated in 2008 with Yoda Norimoto as the author. I'm not sure if anyone is translating it to English.

Life In 19x19

Most up-to-date joseki dictionary

Most up-to-date joseki dictionary

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