Life In 19x19

Do professionals obscure pre-calculated plays, if so are there any good techniques for doing so, or does anything that deviates from Joseki stick out like a sore thumb?

what are pre-calculated plays? i always thought one does a move, after this the other begins the think.

lesenv wrote:what are pre-calculated plays? i always thought one does a move, after this the other begins the think.

Lee Changho's book always say, "The next sequence is pre-calculated". I interpret this to mean that it is a sequence of forcing moves that one of the players has calculated either before hand or during the game that once the conditions arise and the first moves is played, the subsequent moves follow with little deviation.

I'm not sure if this is what you mean, but I've seen some game commentaries where it will say something like "It seems that black has researched this move beforehand", usually in regard to a new fuseki or joseki move. This is an example from gogameguru:

http://gogameguru.com/go-commentary-shi ... th-lg-cup/

If this is what you're talking about, I'm not sure how a player could obscure it. Maybe taking a long time pretending to think about it when they already know what they will play? Doesn't really seem worth it.

emeraldemon wrote:I'm not sure if this is what you mean, but I've seen some game commentaries where it will say something like "It seems that black has researched this move beforehand", usually in regard to a new fuseki or joseki move. This is an example from gogameguru:

http://gogameguru.com/go-commentary-shi ... th-lg-cup/

If this is what you're talking about, I'm not sure how a player could obscure it. Maybe taking a long time pretending to think about it when they already know what they will play? Doesn't really seem worth it.

I think one way is to play pretty much the innocuously standard moves, but paying attention to the order of play, something for which Mr. Changho was notorious.

SmoothOper wrote:

lesenv wrote:what are pre-calculated plays? i always thought one does a move, after this the other begins the think.

Lee Changho's book always say, "The next sequence is pre-calculated". I interpret this to mean that it is a sequence of forcing moves that one of the players has calculated either before hand or during the game that once the conditions arise and the first moves is played, the subsequent moves follow with little deviation.

I can't say about the specific cases you are talking about. However, my guess, based upon commentaries I have seen in Japanese, is that the following sequence has been read out, probably by both players. They probably played it very quickly. A prepared move or sequence that one player springs on another would probably be called a new play, I think.

There's this one famous case featuring Luo Xihe maybe 10 years back? He was losing the game but saw that there's actually a move which looks like sente that, if answered locally, will allow him to kill a group. However, he also knew that if he played it immediately the opponent will suspect something and protect the group instead. So instead he played two sente moves without much threat quickly to lure the opponent into thinking he has given up and then suddenly played the sente-ish move. The opponent responded locally and Luo killed the group and won the game.

Well there are a few things that come to mind:

1. When I am playing a slower game with 30 min to 1 hour byo-mi I spend my time unevenly. Sometimes I just play for a few moves without taking a long time to read because the situation doesn't require it. However, later on there are groups that can die or live in the future and I read them all out, taking 10-20 mins. But afterwards I play regular moves for awhile as if that was what I was reading. So that when I play it in the future they don't suspect it.

2. When killing a group you attack it by playing sente moves that indirectly weaken the group before playing the vital point.

3. Sometimes you leave the corner group like it is dead, but know it can be a ko that the opponent sometimes misses?


Other than that if you play a new joseki it is usually obvious once the move is played.

SmoothOper wrote: Lee Changho's book always say, "The next sequence is pre-calculated". I interpret this to mean that it is a sequence of forcing moves that one of the players has calculated either before hand or during the game that once the conditions arise and the first moves is played, the subsequent moves follow with little deviation.

That sounds like a translation of 'joseki' to me.

how i read it, the story illluck tells it, looks like obscure the pre-calculated plays.
if pre-calculated means forced or no-brainer.

NoSkill wrote:Well there are a few things that come to mind:

1. When I am playing a slower game with 30 min to 1 hour byo-mi I spend my time unevenly. Sometimes I just play for a few moves without taking a long time to read because the situation doesn't require it. However, later on there are groups that can die or live in the future and I read them all out, taking 10-20 mins. But afterwards I play regular moves for awhile as if that was what I was reading. So that when I play it in the future they don't suspect it.

2. When killing a group you attack it by playing sente moves that indirectly weaken the group before playing the vital point.

3. Sometimes you leave the corner group like it is dead, but know it can be a ko that the opponent sometimes misses?


Other than that if you play a new joseki it is usually obvious once the move is played.

Is "new joseki" like "oxymoron"?

SmoothOper wrote: Is "new joseki" like "oxymoron"?

No... it's a sequence that players have judged give an equal result that has come about in the last few years.

oren wrote:

SmoothOper wrote: Is "new joseki" like "oxymoron"?

No... it's a sequence that players have judged give an equal result that has come about in the last few years.

So a new move does not make a new joseki?

SmoothOper wrote: So a new move does not make a new joseki?

A new move has the possibility of becoming a joseki. Generally it takes a bit of study and debate before deciding it is joseki.

New moves lead to many new lines and generally it takes some time before people would decide it's joseki.

oren wrote:

SmoothOper wrote: So a new move does not make a new joseki?

A new move has the possibility of becoming a joseki. Generally it takes a bit of study and debate before deciding it is joseki.

New moves lead to many new lines and generally it takes some time before people would decide it's joseki.

So in the mean time if the play implies a series of forcing moves that one of the players had though out in advance, then it would be a pre-calculated play not a joseki, since it isn't obvious that the play gives equal results one way or the other.