Life In 19x19

So reading up on this concept, it seems to be a move like a probe, to test the opponents response or to force them to make a shape before they want to, as in too early on, so that you can plan better and invade/reduce better.

Is this what it is? Anyone have any comments on this?

NoSkill wrote:So reading up on this concept, it seems to be a move like a probe, to test the opponents response or to force them to make a shape before they want to, as in too early on, so that you can plan better and invade/reduce better.

Is this what it is? Anyone have any comments on this?

That's about right. Essentially it is used when two or more lines of play are available and there is no clear difference between them. Or maybe neither of them work quite right.

A yosu-miru is a play that forces the opponent to make a choice between his own options so that you can then use the line of play that works best once the position is settled in that way.

A good example is here.

Are there any professionals that were known especially for their probes? I would like to research these types of plays more.

There are several chapters about probes in the opening in that Korean style fuseki dictionary (e.g. 21, 53, 57).

Uberdude wrote:There are several chapters about probes in the opening in that Korean style fuseki dictionary (e.g. 21, 53, 57).

Right but im not sure those count as yosu-miru or exactly what yosu-miru is. Ive heard some people simply call it probe, but I think it can mean a bit more as strategic concepts of go explains. I read that book, but wonder about more examples to go with it.

Jürgen Mattern multi-time European and even more often German champion wrote a book (in German) which is 1/3 about yosu-miru (he even calls it like that, not probe or asking move). The other chapters are about kikashi and sabaki and the common theme through the book is timing. It is one of the few books in my library that talks about it at all. (And it is one of the rare examples of high level material produced by westerners.) Hebsacker had it at a reduced price some time ago.

NoSkill wrote:

Uberdude wrote:There are several chapters about probes in the opening in that Korean style fuseki dictionary (e.g. 21, 53, 57).

Right but im not sure those count as yosu-miru or exactly what yosu-miru is. Ive heard some people simply call it probe, but I think it can mean a bit more as strategic concepts of go explains. I read that book, but wonder about more examples to go with it.

It's difficult at a lower level to define yosu-miru. It's closely related to kikashi, but is very different. I read through the SL page I posted earlier and I have to say it isn't as helpful as I had thought.

So let's contrast yosu-miru to kikashi.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Is this, like, a probe or something?
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . b 1 b . .
$$ | . . O a O . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]

Here might look like kikashi, but while a is the normal choice here, b or c might be appropriate if either the top side or the corner are most valuable in the situation. in this case is not really kikashi, because kikashi is more or less defined as a move which forces a response which is favorable, immediately or as part of a sequence, to the player forcing the response. Here White could frustrate Black's plans with b or c. Were not present, White would have many other follow-ups from his two-stone enclosure.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Favorable?!?
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . .
$$ | . . O 2 O . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]

Even the normal response is nothing to celebrate about for Black, who now has a single stone pressed against a flawless White wall. However, this forces White to fix his shape into a wall. This is where a Go player's ingenuity comes in.

Let's see game 5 of the 2012 Honinbo title match:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Even Iyama Yuta connects against a peep.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X B X . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . O . X . e . a O d . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I could explain, but this comment from the marked stone move by An Younggil 8p will be a lot more concise:

"This is the most solid answer for protecting black's right side position, but as you'll see, white can now play to live in the corner later.

Instead of 33, if black plays A, white gains sente moves like B and C, so it would be easier for white to invade the right side. And if black plays 33 at D, white can aim at moves like E later."

White, having 'forced' Black into a fixed position, went on to play , a choice he made in light of Black's strengthened position on the side. This wasn't a loss, however, as White went on to reduce with little danger Black's primary area and then, as Younggil commented, chose a beautiful time to play to live in the corner.

Of course being a top pro, White chose not to play the sequence out completely, but use the potential of the white group in the bottom-right to force black to fight with the sequence in mind, cramping his play slightly throughout the board and thus gaining the advantage.

He then went on to make a simple life & death mistake and lose. But hey, we're all human. Pros are just less so than we amateurs are.

The idea here is that White, had he not been forced, could have handled the situation much more flexibly by doing what he wished with his corner stones. As such, he had a wall and that was that.

I hope this helps at least a bit.

I'm not seeing the difference between this and what I understand is meant by "probe".

NoSkill wrote:So reading up on this concept, it seems to be a move like a probe, to test the opponents response or to force them to make a shape before they want to, as in too early on, so that you can plan better and invade/reduce better.

Is this what it is? Anyone have any comments on this?

Yosu miru is an Englishized version of yousu miru (様子 見る), a term from ordinary everyday Japanese which means "see what the state of things is". No doubt it was used by go players with the same meaning and thus became a go term. "Probe" was chosen by translators as an English equivalent and perhaps fails to capture all the Japanese meaning. "Asking move" seems pretty good to me but I think it isn't very natural English. Maybe it is more Japanese than you want (need?) to know but yousu (様子) means " the state of affairs, things, circumstances" and miru (見る) is the ordinary verb "to see", among other related meanings.

I am not aware of more Go meaning of yosumiru beyond probe. If you are interested in the Japanese language look at http://senseis.xmp.net/?YosumiVsYosumiru. If you are interested in Go then look at pro games, reviews, books etc as there will be examples and explanations of probes in them, though I am not aware of a consolidated "big book of probes". There is "Beyond Forcing Moves" which is a very nice book on kikashi and timing with a slight bit or probing (you can see my post about it here: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=5150).

SmoothOper wrote:I would like to research these types of plays more.

Joseki 1 Fundamentals classifies the move type "test" as a subtype of "creating possibilities". So, if you want to do research, you could search for

- a finer classification of test moves,
- a more complete classification of creating possibilities moves,
- aspects of eliminating possibilities when a test move is played,
- strategic aims related to (particular subtypes of) test moves,
- positional contexts for playing (particular subtypes of) test moves.

Another book with a chapter on the topic is Strategic Concepts of Go.

For the historical aspects of probes, which are relatively recent in pro play, see the Commented Games of Shuei.

I personally see no difference between probe and yousu miru in practical terms.

John Fairbairn wrote:For the historical aspects of probes, which are relatively recent in pro play, see the Commented Games of Shuei.

I personally see no difference between probe and yousu miru in practical terms.

I feel that the difference lay in the presuppositions behind the words.

In English a 'probe' is essentially a test. "If I do this, what happens?"

Yosu-miru as defined in this thread seems to have an element of follow-up. "Let's see the state of affairs and then I will play accordingly."

Of course in Go there's no point to a probe without a follow-up, but the Japanese term seems to assume a continuation after the response. It's a bit unfair that they combine two words together to get there though.

I see nothing in Japanese that assumes an immediate follow-up. It might be worth recalling that it's not really a technical term, but just part of the everyday vernacular. I just read something about baseball this morning where a coach used it in the sense of "We'll see what happens", and it can also be used of doing a medical diagnosis - the follow-up there may be long distant. Because it is not a technical term, you can use it how you like, really.

I see nothing in Japanese that assumes an immediate follow-up. It might be worth recalling that it's not really a technical term, but just part of the everyday vernacular. I just read something about baseball this morning where a coach used it in the sense of "We'll see what happens", and it can also be used of doing a medical diagnosis - the follow-up there may be long distant. Because it is not a technical term, you can use it how you like, really.