Life In 19x19

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:30 am**

I'm experimenting with this fuseki and I feel I'm getting a too good result (I do lose my fair share of games, but that's strictly because I suck)

My question is: Is this result balanced?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm4 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 6 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 7 . . . . . , 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

(I'm b here. Don't ask me why w plays like this. It's the most common reply to my moves by people around my rank.)

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:35 am**

I don't like the

-

exchange for White, but otherwise it looks pretty even to me. Bearing in mind I'm pretty weak in the opening, so I could be WAY off.

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:42 am**

Marcus wrote:I don't like the - exchange for White, but otherwise it looks pretty even to me. Bearing in mind I'm pretty weak in the opening, so I could be WAY off.

Where would you play

?

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:45 am**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . a . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Up to here it's pretty standard but from games I watched, White likes to pincer now around 'a', most likely to keep Black's framework in check.

But yeah, the 11-12 exchange is strange here, I'd play the common Keima as Black.

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:46 am**

Mimura (Mimura`s Fuseki Bible, reviewed in the reviews thread by me) gives a very similar position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d a . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 1 . . . . . , b . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It`s not too late for White to enter the moyo.

You can come in at a, but after Black`s b you need to be careful with your shinogi. C and d are recommended options.

So, your move looks quite reasonable anyway, but if Mimura is any guide, you can afford to take your own big point (2 in the diagram) before you enter the moyo.

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:50 am**

Alguien wrote:
Marcus wrote:I don't like the - exchange for White, but otherwise it looks pretty even to me. Bearing in mind I'm pretty weak in the opening, so I could be WAY off.
Where would you play ?

I'm not quite sure where to play (opening is my weakest portion of my game). Q5 seems too close. I've been known to play any of the below

(with varying results). After reading Tami's post, I'd be interested in trying a play at 'a' now ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm4 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 6 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . a . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 7 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:16 pm**

Alguien wrote: My question is: Is this result balanced?

Yes the result is even for both players (according to my knowledge and experience)

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:18 pm**

Marcus wrote:
Alguien wrote:
Marcus wrote:I don't like the - exchange for White, but otherwise it looks pretty even to me. Bearing in mind I'm pretty weak in the opening, so I could be WAY off.
Where would you play ?
I'm not quite sure where to play (opening is my weakest portion of my game). Q5 seems too close. I've been known to play any of the below (with varying results). After reading Tami's post, I'd be interested in trying a play at 'a' now ...

Q5 is the most common approach in this position.

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:38 pm**

SoDesuNe wrote: But yeah, the 11-12 exchange is strange here, I'd play the common Keima as Black.

Joseki 1

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . 7 . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . 5 6 3 , 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 8 4 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . 1 O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . 2 O X O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Joseki 2

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . 7 . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 6 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . 4 . 3 , 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . 5 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 5 O . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . X . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:43 pm**

Thanks, lovelove!

You mentioned that Q5 was the most common approach in this situation. Do you know of any (maybe uncommon, but still playable) alternatives and their follow-ups?

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:56 pm**

Marcus wrote:Thanks, lovelove!

You mentioned that Q5 was the most common approach in this situation. Do you know of any (maybe uncommon, but still playable) alternatives and their follow-ups?

I've done some pattern search, the result was this,

Posted: **Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:27 am**

lovelove wrote: Joseki 1

Joseki 2

From these joseki I reach the conclusion that the position may be even if white knows them. I think it's uneven on a lower rank because it's easier to play for black.

i.e.: I get better results than these joseki and I shouldn't.

Posted: **Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:38 am**

Alguien wrote:
lovelove wrote: Joseki 1

Joseki 2
From these joseki I reach the conclusion that the position may be even if white knows them. I think it's uneven on a lower rank because it's easier to play for black.

i.e.: I get better results than these joseki and I shouldn't.

Then you can start with advantages when you play this opening with black

, good!

Posted: **Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:10 am**

lovelove wrote: Then you can start with advantages when you play this opening with black , good!

I already had that. This is better.

What you've given me is the knowledge of that advantage. Knowing what I shouldn't have makes it much easier to plan and analyse the developments.

(It's like knowing what should be the next move in a joseki when your opponent diverges.)

Posted: **Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:40 am**

Alguien wrote: It's like knowing what should be the next move in a joseki when your opponent diverges.

The two josekis I posted above is all I know for the R4 response.

If my opponent diverges from joseki, I just play where I want to play. This usually gives me a better result than joseki, because joseki moves make sense, non-joseki no make sense.

But sometimes, I get a quite even or worse result from my opponent's non-joseki moves. There are two cases, I didn't know my opponent's move was joseki, or I just played wrong. If first case, I will study that joseki, if second case, I will find out where I made a mistake and don't do that again.

Life In 19x19

Fuseki: aproach 4-4 and go to lower chinese.

Fuseki: aproach 4-4 and go to lower chinese.

Re: One fuseki

Re: One fuseki

Re: Fuseki: aproach 4-4 and go to lower chinese.

Re: One fuseki

Re: One fuseki

Re: Fuseki: aproach 4-4 and go to lower chinese.

Re: One fuseki

Re: Fuseki: aproach 4-4 and go to lower chinese.

Re: Fuseki: aproach 4-4 and go to lower chinese.

Re: Fuseki: aproach 4-4 and go to lower chinese.

Re: Fuseki: aproach 4-4 and go to lower chinese.

Re: Fuseki: aproach 4-4 and go to lower chinese.

Re: Fuseki: aproach 4-4 and go to lower chinese.

Re: Fuseki: aproach 4-4 and go to lower chinese.