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Simple question regarding Tesuji by Davies
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:28 pm
by mic
Hi,
maybe it's the time but I can't see why White's response for Black 1 prevent's Black from cutting (cf. p. 9). I've attached the diagram and my thoughts on White's responses. I am pretty sure I'm missing something obvious, but obviously can't see it
. Hence, any hints are appreciated.
(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.00]
PW[White]PB[Black]AW[ob][pb][qc][rc][rd][qf][qg][rh][ri][rj]AB[pc][pd][qd][pe][pf][pg][qh][qi][qj][qk][rk]LB[qc:A][rh:B]C[Initial position. Black to separate A and B.]
;B[re]
;W[sg]LB[re:1][sg:2]C[For me, B1 works (at least regarding W2, which is the point of this question), as I will show in the different variations.
]
;B[sf]SQ[sd][qe][se][rf][rg][sh][si][sj]C[We will consider all marked possiblities for W's next move.
It seems essential to prevent B's connection at R15 but I'll look at non-obvious moves, too.
]
(;W[sd]
;B[qe]
;W[se]
;B[rf])
(;W[qe]
;B[rg]
;W[rf]
;B[rg])
(;W[se]
;B[rf]
(;W[qe]
;B[rg])
(;W[rg]
;B[qe]))
(;W[rf]C[Good idea?]
(;B[se]
;W[qe]
;B[rg])
(;B[qe]
;W[se]C[But B will not play like this
]))
(;W[rg]
;B[qe])
(;W[sh]
;B[qe])
(;W[si]
;B[qe])
(;W[sj]
;B[qe]))
Cheers,
mic
Re: Simple question regarding Tesuji by Davies
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:52 pm
by daal
I think you need to have another look at the book - the w2 that works is on t14 not t13 :p
Re: Simple question regarding Tesuji by Davies
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:02 pm
by mic
daal wrote:I think you need to have another look at the book - the w2 that works is on t14 not t13 :p
I know, sorry, should have stated my question better: the book says that "only White a [W2] is at all tricky, (it invites a mistake in which Black captures two of the White stones but misses the rest)." I can't seem to find a play in which W can sucessfully connect if Black makes a mistakes which would gain him two of the stones. Any hints appreciated
Cheers,
mic
Re: Simple question regarding Tesuji by Davies
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:22 pm
by daal
Ah, now I see what you mean. For what it's worth, I can't find a refutation to b3 at s14 either...
Re: Simple question regarding Tesuji by Davies
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:52 pm
by Toge
The "best result" that the book gives (page 12, dia 19) is actually false.
Edit: I see that it's explained on next page
(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.00]
PW[Valkea]PB[Musta]AW[ob][pb][qc][rc][rd][qf][qg][rh][ri][rj]AB[pc][pd][qd][pe][pf][pg][qh][qi][qj][qk][rk]
;B[re]
;W[sf]
;B[se]
;W[rf]
(;B[qe]
;W[sg]C[According to book, this is the best result for both players.])
(;B[sg]C[Why not force one more time? White's R15 cut puts his own group in atari.]
(;W[rg]
;B[qe]LB[sh:A][sj:B]C[A and B are miai: white dies.])
(;W[sh]
;B[sj]C[White dies.])
(;W[sj]
;B[sh]C[White dies.])
(;W[sd]
;B[qe]
;W[rg]LB[sh:A][sj:B]C[A and B are miai: white dies.])))
Re: Simple question regarding Tesuji by Davies
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:35 pm
by Prodigious
I guess this is the mistake the tiger's mouth invites.
edit: Well, one of these two
(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.00]
AW[ob][pb][qc][rc][rd][qf][qg][rh][ri][rj]AB[pc][pd][qd][pe][pf][pg][qh][qi][qj][qk][rk]
;B[re]
;W[sg]
(;B[qe]
;W[se]
;B[rf]
;W[sf]
;B[rg])
(;B[rf]
;W[se]
;B[rg]
;W[sf]
;B[qe]))
Re: Simple question regarding Tesuji by Davies
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:48 pm
by mic
Hello Prodigious & Toge,
thanks for your extensive replies. But I am especially interested in the mistake which lead Black gain two points but let white connect (see citation in my post above). According to the book this should be possible after W answered with T13 after Black S15. Any hints are really appreciated.
Another possibility might be that I understand the cited passage totally wrong. In this case I'd appreciate another interpretation.
Cheers,
mic
Re: Simple question regarding Tesuji by Davies
Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:54 am
by gogameguru
After getting the book out and reading the text, I came up with the same variation Prodigious showed (i.e. S15, T13, R15, T15). Black captures two stones and white connects under.
Re: Simple question regarding Tesuji by Davies
Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:07 am
by lindentree
Prodigious wrote:I guess this is the mistake the tiger's mouth invites.
edit: Well, one of these two
(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.00]
AW[ob][pb][qc][rc][rd][qf][qg][rh][ri][rj]AB[pc][pd][qd][pe][pf][pg][qh][qi][qj][qk][rk]
;B[re]
;W[sg]
(;B[qe]
;W[se]
;B[rf]
;W[sf]
;B[rg])
(;B[rf]
;W[se]
;B[rg]
;W[sf]
;B[qe]))
In your second variation, why S13 instead of T14?
Re: Simple question regarding Tesuji by Davies
Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:08 am
by Prodigious
lindentree wrote:Prodigious wrote:I guess this is the mistake the tiger's mouth invites.
edit: Well, one of these two
(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.00]
AW[ob][pb][qc][rc][rd][qf][qg][rh][ri][rj]AB[pc][pd][qd][pe][pf][pg][qh][qi][qj][qk][rk]
;B[re]
;W[sg]
(;B[qe]
;W[se]
;B[rf]
;W[sf]
;B[rg])
(;B[rf]
;W[se]
;B[rg]
;W[sf]
;B[qe]))
In your second variation, why S13 instead of T14?
Well, T14 works, of course. I was trying to find a mistake that fits the description.
Re: Simple question regarding Tesuji by Davies
Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:52 pm
by mic
Hi,
I'd like to thank all commenters on answering my question. In the end, we understood each other and your explanations were quite helpful!
Cheers,
mic