Life In 19x19

Posted: **Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:19 pm**

In a typical middle game position, the board looks vast and complicated. With say 100 moves played, there are 261 possible places left to play. Take out all the line 1 points and obviously safe territory, and you might be down to 150 potential moves, which is still a big number.

As you survey the board, where is your eye drawn, to select some candidate moves for further consideration?

The emptiest area of the board?

Defects in your shape?

Defects in your opponent's shape?

Weak groups?

Potential cuts?

Areas needing invasion or reduction?

Posted: **Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:31 pm**

I’m just a mere 12-13k, and I can’t answer your questions.

But I think they are … very good questions to have in mind when playing, all of them, all of the time.

I also find these questions helpful, too.

Greetings, Tom

Posted: **Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:32 pm**

PeterPeter wrote:In a typical middle game position, the board looks vast and complicated. With say 100 moves played, there are 261 possible places left to play. Take out all the line 1 points and obviously safe territory, and you might be down to 150 potential moves, which is still a big number.

As you survey the board, where is your eye drawn, to select some candidate moves for further consideration?

The emptiest area of the board?

Defects in your shape?

Defects in your opponent's shape?

Weak groups?

Potential cuts?

Areas needing invasion or reduction?

All of the above?

In my games:
Assuming all shapes are 'settled' and no urgent fights are brewing - in other words, one of the moments you sit back and think 'Ok, that went well (or not), now what?' - I would say my eye is drawn to the largest open space... This is not to say that its the ONLY place I look at, but its certainly the most magnetic. Unless there is a preconception, like 'I know he has a weakness I was eyeballing for a while, now that my group is safe, lets look at that again!' In our own games we seldom approach positions without serious preconceptions and luggage of previous moves.

In somebody else's game - like you approach the table, see the game in the middle, and try to figure out what is going on. In such case, I would probably look at things in this order:
1. evaluate points - solid areas on both sides, what is dead what is not, status of groups
2. attack potential - weaknesses on both sides, possible aji
4. points potential - open areas and where more points can be got

If the game was on the server, I would then go through the record, move by move, to see what I call 'psychological momentum' - i.e. who is pushing whom, regardless of the position. My experience tells me that in games between humans, especially amateurs (and especially non-high-dan ones) - perception is often as important as actual position, if not more so. I think this is where we can learn a lot from computers.

Generally, I am not sure there are such generic algorithms which would apply in each (or even most) positions.
Hope this helps.

Posted: **Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:51 pm**

Go is all about being more efficient with your moves than your opponent. There are three main ways to do this:

1) Play better, bigger moves
2) Play multi-purpose moves
3) Get free moves

Number three is part of what the middle game is about. Force your opponent to defend so that you can get another move in to achieve your objective. So when you reach the middle game, always, always, ALWAYS look to weak groups. If your opponents have weak groups, attack them in a way that helps you. If you have weak groups, find an efficient way to stabilize them. The best way, again, is to attack your opponent's weak groups from the right direction.

The opening is about establishing groups and vying for the advantage of terrain. The endgame is about calculation and taking the most leftover points. The middle game is all about life and death. The more you can push your opponent's groups around, the more you should gain from it, the closer you should be to victory. If you're the one with weak groups the same applies against you. This is what the term 'overstretching' is about.

There's a lot to consider. But at your level, start by taking away your opponents' eyespace and pushing their groups around. As you get stronger you'll find different methods, different timing, strategies, etc. The general rule of Go is that if your opponent's group is not unconditionally alive, you can milk it for points.

So to make a long answer short, threaten your opponent's groups and strengthen your own. That's what the middle game is about.

Posted: **Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:12 pm**

There is no easy answer.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Black to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X X . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . X O . . O X O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X O O . O O O . O . . X , X X . | $$ | . X O O X X O . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O . . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O X . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . X X O . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X X . X X . O X O O . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O X . X . X O . X O O . . | $$ | . . X . . . X O O O X O O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . O . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . X . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . , . O O | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is not a guess the next play problem. It is to prompt discussion. What are some good moves in this position?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Black to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X X . X X X X X X . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O X X O O X O O . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O . X O . O X O . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O O O O . O . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O X . X . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O O O O O X O . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X X O X . O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . X X . O X X X X . X O O . , O O . | $$ | . . X . X O O . . . . X . . . X O X . | $$ | . . . X O . . . X O . . X O X . X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Ditto.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Black to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X O . O , X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X O O X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . O X . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X . . X X X . O X X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X X . X O X O . X O O O . . . | $$ | . O . O X O O O O O O . . X O . O . . | $$ | . O . O X O X . X X X . . X O O X . . | $$ | . X X X O O O . X O . . X . X O X . . | $$ | . . . X O . X X . O . . . X . X O O . | $$ | X O . X O . . . . . . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Ditto.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Black to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . O . . . . O O O X . | $$ | . . . O . O . . X O . . . O . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . X X . . . . X O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . O . X O . X . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . X O O O X O O O . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . O X O O X X . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . X X O X X X . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . X O . O . . | $$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . . O O . . O . | $$ | . . . . O . . . X X . . . X . X . X . | $$ | . . X , . . X . X O . O . O X , . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . O X O . . . O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Ditto.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Black to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . O X . . . O X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O O X . X X X X X X . X . . . . | $$ | . . X X X O . . . O X O . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . O O O X X O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . O O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . . O . . X . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . O . O . . . . . X . . | $$ | X . X O . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . X X X X O . X . , O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O O X O O . O O . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . X O O X O . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Guess what?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Black to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X O . O . . . . . O . . O O X . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . O . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . O . . . O X X X . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . X . X O X O O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . O . . . X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . . O O O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . X . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . O . . . X O . | $$ | . . X O . . X X X X . . . . X X O O . | $$ | . . X O O . O X O O X X O . X O . O . | $$ | . . . X . O . O . O O X . . X O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

You said it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Black to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . . | $$ | . . X O O O . . . . . . . O X X O . . | $$ | . O X X . . X . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . O X X O O O . . . . . O O . X O . . | $$ | . O O O X X . . . . . . . X X . X . . | $$ | . X X X O X . . . . . O . . . . X . . | $$ | . X . O O X . . . . . O . X X . . O . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . O X X O O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X O O X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . X X O . O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X O . O . X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . O X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . X . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . X O X . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

One more time.

Posted: **Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:45 pm**

Where does a beginners look for moves?

Near to his opponent's last move.

That you considered the whole board is already a good step forward out of beginner land.

Posted: **Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:30 pm**

PeterPeter wrote:In a typical middle game position, the board looks vast and complicated. With say 100 moves played, there are 261 possible places left to play. Take out all the line 1 points and obviously safe territory, and you might be down to 150 potential moves, which is still a big number.

As you survey the board, where is your eye drawn, to select some candidate moves for further consideration?

The emptiest area of the board?

Defects in your shape?

Defects in your opponent's shape?

Weak groups?

Potential cuts?

Areas needing invasion or reduction?

Personally, the board started to stop looking so big and empty when I started to understand how sitiuations in different parts of the board affect each other. I started to think more strategically, and those strategic goals inform my decisions as to which tactical concerns are the most important.

My advice would be not to worry about it because as you get better you'll naturally start to see the board as a whole, but if you really want to focus on improving your whole board judgement I'd suggest you pay attention to things like:

* How thickness affects nearby fighting.
* How it affect things slightly further away.
* And slightly further...
* How the strength of a group is relative to those around it.
* The differences of third and fourth line stones.
* Which positions have good potential for expansion. (Consider both sides)
* Which positions don't. (Consider both sides)
* Which positions are good for limiting an opponents expansion. (Consider both sides)
* Which positions aren't. (Consider both sides)

Understanding these things will help you think strategically and allow you to better judge the relative value of the moves your considering. For example, you might decide that you can't afford to allow a 3-3 invasion because the thickness you gain will no longer be useful.
P.s. Don't constantly try and consider all of the things I listed. Just pay attention to them as they become relevant in the game. (Or when reviewing.)

Posted: **Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:31 pm**

Locally

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . W B X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . a W O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b W . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . c X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As a beginner I would say look for moves like this a,b,c. If you see a cutting point. Cut.

After you cut try to connect to other stones of your color.
Locally try not to be split into 3 different groups of stones.

By cutting at every chance you will get in lots of fights.
And you'll also have your cutting stones killed often.
You'll learn where you can cut and where you shouldn't cut.

Globally

Look if you can separate two groups of opponents stones.
Or look if you can surround a group of opponents stones.

Cutting, Connecting, Surrounding. These are the basics of the game. :]
(I'm surprised i haven't read someone say "practice your basics/fundamentals" in like 3 months.)

Posted: **Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:01 pm**

Unusedname wrote:Locally

$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . W B X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . a W O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W d . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . c X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . W B X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . a W O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W d . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b W . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . c X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
As a beginner I would say look for moves like this a,b,c. If you see a cutting point. Cut.

Wouldn’t, in the case you show in the diagram, d be a better cutting point than b which would, as a result of W trying to connect, run danger of being captured in a ladder that would run towards the lower left?

Tom

(Please excuse my German

)

Posted: **Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:32 pm**

Unusedname wrote:Locally

$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . W B X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . a W O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W d . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . c X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . W B X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . a W O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W d . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b W . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . c X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
As a beginner I would say look for moves like this a,b,c. If you see a cutting point. Cut.

After you cut try to connect to other stones of your color.
Locally try not to be split into 3 different groups of stones.

By cutting at every chance you will get in lots of fights.
And you'll also have your cutting stones killed often.
You'll learn where you can cut and where you shouldn't cut.

While I admire and encourage the fighting spirit, I feel that, as a non-beginner, I should point out that "a", "b", "c", and "d" are all questionable here, if not downright bad.

Posted: **Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:39 pm**

Bill Spight wrote:[..]

While I admire and encourage the fighting spirit, I feel that, as a non-beginner, I should point out that "a", "b", "c", and "d" are all questionable here, if not downright bad.

I assume you mean they are bad if they happen in such isolated situations as in the quoted diagram? With no context?

As I understood the diagram these are just examples with any context amputated. But yes, this could probably lead to misunderstandings.

Posted: **Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:17 pm**

Well, let's look at each position locally.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Diagram 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . B . . . 1 O O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Just looking at the 8 stones to the right, the formation is equal (ignoring the edges of the board). However, all the stones are tactically weak, with at most 4 dame. That means that the first player has a greater than usual advantage. Yes, the

stone offers some support, but the cut is still questionable.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Diagram 2 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Again, ignoring the edges of the board, the position after the cut is equal, but all the stones are weak.

is good, as the proverb states.

White would in general do better to play at 2 instead. That also produces a locally equal position, but the stones are not as weak.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Diagram 3 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

-

gives White a good shape (extending from a crosscut). Not recommended, as a rule.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Diagram 4 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 1 O 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is normally a good sequence for Black, which is why there is a proverb about playing

. But White does not have to play

. He could descend to 5 instead, for instance. The

stone offers some support, but often Black should start at 5 instead of 1.

Cut-Fight-Kill is not bad advice to beginners.

It is certainly better than Secure Territory.

But there are better examples.

Posted: **Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:34 pm**

Yeah I figured they weren't the best examples. But I think it's better as a beginner to cut and find out the move is bad instead of just assuming it's bad because someone posted a diagram saying so.

Plus at a kyu level the difference between good and bad might not even be noticable.

Posted: **Sat Apr 13, 2013 1:56 am**

Bill Spight wrote:
$$B Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . O X O O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X O O . O O O . O . . X , X X . |
$$ | . X O O X X O . . . O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X X O . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . X X . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O X . X . X O . X O O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X O O O X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . O . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . , . O O |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X X . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . X O . . O X O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X O O . O O O . O . . X , X X . | $$ | . X O O X X O . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O . . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O X . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . X X O . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X X . X X . O X O O . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O X . X . X O . X O O . . | $$ | . . X . . . X O O O X O O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . O . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . X . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . , . O O | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This is not a guess the next play problem. It is to prompt discussion. What are some good moves in this position?

I'll just have a go at the first one for now, to check I am on the right lines. How many is reasonable? Should I label each move and give reasons?

There are so many possibilities...

The main priorities seem to be:
The big unclaimed area at the bottom;
Protecting the weak black group in the lower right (finding an escape route); and
Attacking the 2 white groups in the upper right (R10 and R14), by separating them.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Black to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X X . . C . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . X O . . O X O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X O O . O O O . O . . X , X X . | $$ | . X O O X X O . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O . . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O X . O X . C . . . . . . . C . . | $$ | . . O . . X X O . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X X . X X . O X O O . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O X . X . X O C X O O C . | $$ | . . X . . . X O O O X O O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . O . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . X X . C . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . C . X X C . X . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . , . O O | $$ | . . . O . C . . C . . . . . O . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: **Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:43 am**

PeterPeter wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
$$B Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . O X O O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X O O . O O O . O . . X , X X . |
$$ | . X O O X X O . . . O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X X O . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . X X . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O X . X . X O . X O O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X O O O X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . O . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . , . O O |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X X . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . X O . . O X O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X O O . O O O . O . . X , X X . | $$ | . X O O X X O . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O . . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O X . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . X X O . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X X . X X . O X O O . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O X . X . X O . X O O . . | $$ | . . X . . . X O O O X O O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . O . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . X . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . , . O O | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This is not a guess the next play problem. It is to prompt discussion. What are some good moves in this position?
I'll just have a go at the first one for now, to check I am on the right lines. How many is reasonable? Should I label each move and give reasons?

There are so many possibilities...

The main priorities seem to be:
The big unclaimed area at the bottom;
Protecting the weak black group in the lower right (finding an escape route); and
Attacking the 2 white groups in the upper right (R10 and R14), by separating them.

$$Bc Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X X . . C . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . O X O O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X O O . O O O . O . . X , X X . |
$$ | . X O O X X O . . . O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . C . . . . . . . C . . |
$$ | . . O . . X X O . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . X X . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O X . X . X O C X O O C . |
$$ | . . X . . . X O O O X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . O . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . X X . C . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . C . X X C . X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . , . O O |
$$ | . . . O . C . . C . . . . . O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X X . . C . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . X O . . O X O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X O O . O O O . O . . X , X X . | $$ | . X O O X X O . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O . . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O X . O X . C . . . . . . . C . . | $$ | . . O . . X X O . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X X . X X . O X O O . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O X . X . X O C X O O C . | $$ | . . X . . . X O O O X O O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . O . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . X X . C . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . C . X X C . X . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . , . O O | $$ | . . . O . C . . C . . . . . O . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I must say I find Bill Spight examples pretty hard but that maybe only speaks for my own weakness =D
I would combine attack and defense in the first one as the main priority:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Black to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X X . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . X O . . O X O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X O O . O O O . O . . X , X X . | $$ | . X O O X X O . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O . . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O X . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . X X O . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X X . X X . O X O O . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O X . X . X O . X O O . . | $$ | . . X . . . X O O O X O O . . . . d . | $$ | . . . O . . 1 . . a O . . . B . B . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . e O . . . . c | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . B B . . B . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O B b | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . , . O O | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

seems to me viable to defend the group above it, which is not clearly alive, I think. Later Black might cut at 'a' and thus can save the group at least in Ko.
Second priority would indeed be the marked stones on the right. I feel living is not the problem since Black can always make one Gote eye with 'b' and 'c' and 'd' is also open. But I feel something like 'e' is more positive since the White stones in the center are not completely save either.
Territority-wise Black does not have to haste to play at the bottom.

Life In 19x19

Where should a beginner look for moves?

Where should a beginner look for moves?

Re: Where should a beginner look for moves?

Re: Where should a beginner look for moves?

Re: Where should a beginner look for moves?

Re: Where should a beginner look for moves?

Re: Where should a beginner look for moves?

Re: Where should a beginner look for moves?

Re: Where should a beginner look for moves?

Re: Where should a beginner look for moves?

Re: Where should a beginner look for moves?

Re: Where should a beginner look for moves?

Re: Where should a beginner look for moves?

Re: Where should a beginner look for moves?

Re: Where should a beginner look for moves?

Re: Where should a beginner look for moves?