Life In 19x19

I am having trouble focusing on the idea of sente and gote in my games.

When is it right to make a gote move? If the value of the move is large enough? Obviously keeping sente is good, but when is losing sente worth it? Is a major part of keeping sent knowing more sequences so you can tell if they end in sente or gote?

Advice (and examples to look at) are appreciated!

cyndane wrote:I am having trouble focusing on the idea of sente and gote in my games.

When is it right to make a gote move? If the value of the move is large enough? Obviously keeping sente is good, but when is losing sente worth it? Is a major part of keeping sent knowing more sequences so you can tell if they end in sente or gote?

Advice (and examples to look at) are appreciated!

At the beginning level you have not learned enough to be able to judge sente and gote very well. Some moves are clearly one or the other. But other are not so clear. If you really want to learn whether you should answer your opponent's move, don't. If you should have answered, give him the chance to prove it.

Aside from that, the general rule is sente-gote-reverse sente.

Later on, you will learn about different kinds of sente and whether it is good or bad to play them.

A good rule of thumb is that if you find yourself hoping that the opponent doesn't respond the move is sente, and if you're hoping that he doesn't play elsewhere, it was actually gote.

I would focus on trying to assess the size of a move and the size of a follow-up first, if you are having trouble with sente and gote. Often my own mistake about sente and gote are connected to general problems with positional judgment and misreads. The more comfortable you are reading ahead, the better you'll evaluate what you've read out.

It also helps to have a strategy. If you believe that making your weak group live is the biggest thing on the board, suddenly all sorts of moves that threaten to live become sente.

In the same vein as Polama...

If your opponent responds, then your move was sente.
If he plays somewhere else and you respond to that, then your original move was gote.
If he plays somewhere else and you follow up on your original move... You get the drift.

This whole sente/gote situation is essentially a game of chicken. Each move is like a bet and your opponent decides whether or not he/she needs to respond. Make sure your move has a good follow-up and your opponent should respond.

At your level, if your opponent doesn't respond and doesn't threaten to kill a group, I would advise to stick to your follow-up and not look back. You thought your move was best, and that's the time to prove it.

You'll learn very quickly about the value of moves, and your game will become much more efficient.

As a beginner, instead of thinking sente/gote, maybe it's better first to just think about not following your opponent's moves all the time. Think about playing in the biggest area after you have made your weak groups safe.

Bill Spight wrote:the general rule is sente-gote-reverse sente.

Please tell me that this is a typo!

Usually, 1) double sente, 2) sente, 3) reverse sente, 4) gote.

RobertJasiek wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:the general rule is sente-gote-reverse sente.

Please tell me that this is a typo!

Usually, 1) double sente, 2) sente, 3) reverse sente, 4) gote.

Bill (or an imposter) has discussed this a bit here: http://senseis.xmp.net/?WhenToPlayAReverseSente

Reverse sente plays are not more valuable than sente plays of the same size, or gote plays, either. In fact, the general rule is to play sente first, gote second (unless the gote are miai), and reverse sente third.

-- BillSpight (whose further comments were pasted into the last big point section

last-big-point-section wrote: Get the last big point

Another heuristic to guide your endgame is to get tedomari. If you have a choice of gote vs. reverse sente that are worth the same (or often approximately the same), you usually want to get the last such play. Doing so depends on whether the number of gote is even or odd. (None are ko, which complicates things). If the number of gote is even -- they are miai --, play the reverse sente to get tedomari. If the number of gote is odd, play one of them and answer the sente.

However, useful as it is as a heuristic, there are many situations where the available reverse sente is not equal to the remaining largest gote and still either of them could be the best play, depending on the complete picture. Of course, almost everything is a heuristic unless you can read the whole game out.

RobertJasiek wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:the general rule is sente-gote-reverse sente.

Please tell me that this is a typo!

Usually, 1) double sente, 2) sente, 3) reverse sente, 4) gote.

Let's not complicate things for beginners. Double sente are the largest plays on the board. At the same time, things that are called double sente may not be. Even Kano, who authored the Yose Dictionary, was confused about double sente.

Thank you all for the advice! There are some ways of thinking about the sente/gote mentioned here that I had not thought of before.

cyndane wrote:I am having trouble focusing on the idea of sente and gote in my games.

When is it right to make a gote move? If the value of the move is large enough? Obviously keeping sente is good, but when is losing sente worth it? Is a major part of keeping sent knowing more sequences so you can tell if they end in sente or gote?

Advice (and examples to look at) are appreciated!

That is a good question. Many times it is possible to accept fewer local points but in a way that allows you to get sente globally. However, it is difficult to fight those greedy instincts that tell you to get profit, captures and influence now, and also kind of risky, because you might have to prove that a group is alive.

One example of what SmoothOper was saying is a full monkey jump (ogeima shape), which can often be gote, vs a shorter (keima shape) one, which is generally sente. One trades a few points for sente in that case, and is generally better off for it.

Descent vs hane on the 2nd line can also bring this into play.

When thinking of a move as sente, you need to think how sente is it. Some moves are more sente than others, i.e. they have a bigger follow-up if ignored. So when you think of an endgame move as 4 points in sente, more accurately it is 4 points gote with a further (e.g.) 100 point kill in gote next. 100 is pretty big so you can probably just think of it as sente. But what if the follow-up is 10 points, but there is also a 3 point sente move, or more accurately 3 points gote with a 20 points follow-up. If you do the 4, and the opponent the 3, then you "punish" his ignoring your sente and get the 10 follow-up, but he then does the 20 points follow-up to his move then you lost out (unless Bill constructs a board position with just the right tedomari ). I started writing a little article about a position from a game of mine like this at http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andrew.j.simons/go/yose/.

Uberdude wrote:When thinking of a move as sente, you need to think how sente is it. Some moves are more sente than others, i.e. they have a bigger follow-up if ignored. So when you think of an endgame move as 4 points in sente, more accurately it is 4 points gote with a further (e.g.) 100 point kill in gote next. 100 is pretty big so you can probably just think of it as sente. But what if the follow-up is 10 points, but there is also a 3 point sente move, or more accurately 3 points gote with a 20 points follow-up. If you do the 4, and the opponent the 3, then you "punish" his ignoring your sente and get the 10 follow-up, but he then does the 20 points follow-up to his move then you lost out (unless Bill constructs a board position with just the right tedomari ). I started writing a little article about a position from a game of mine like this at http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andrew.j.simons/go/yose/.

I don't think you can discuss this issue without asking whether by "sente" you are referring to the privilege or to the relative value of the play and the follow-up. If both players have a twenty-point gote follow-up, then it's neither black's sente nor white's sente, but double , right?

jts wrote: I don't think you can discuss this issue without asking whether by "sente" you are referring to the privilege or to the relative value of the play and the follow-up. If both players have a twenty-point gote follow-up, then it's neither black's sente nor white's sente, but double , right?

Or more accurately, both players have a gote move with a big gote follow-up (which itself might have more follow-up). For example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Double sente
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X O O O O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O 4 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 1 2 . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is a common double sente endgame position. But neither move is totally sente, white could omit and lose a load of (hard to calculate exactly) points. Ditto for white going first into black's area to left. But the move is slightly more sente for white than black because black has a bigger territory (by 1 line) behind so stands to lose more should white end up playing 7 gotes or whatever it takes to turn it all to dame. In practice these considerations usually don't matter as it's easy to find the right stage of the game when that large hard-to-calculate-exactly potential loss of points is too big so the move is sente. But for an example of when a double sente move is more sente for one player than the other and would thus be a mistake, see my comment on move 108 of http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... f=4&t=7635.

P.S. If Bill thinks calculating the value of the above position too easy and wants a challenge, how about:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Argh!!!
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X . . . . . . . O . O . O O O O |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . . O . O . O . O . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X O O . O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O 4 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 1 2 . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]