Life In 19x19

The AGA ruleset states the following:

The Last Move: White must make the last move--if necessary, an additional pass, with a stone passed to the opponent as usual. The total number of stones played and passed by the two players during the entire game must be equal.

My question is: What if white passes first. Then black passes. And then white plays a stone on the board. Would that be an illegal move by white?

go-master wrote:My question is: What if white passes first. Then black passes. And then white plays a stone on the board. Would that be illegal by white?

No, just unusual.

oren wrote:

go-master wrote:My question is: What if white passes first. Then black passes. And then white plays a stone on the board. Would that be illegal by white?

No, just unusual.

I thought if both players pass consecutively the game is over, and if one player wanted to place a stone after this they’d have to allow the other player to play first.

I thought if both players pass consecutively the game is over, and if one player wanted to place a stone after this they’d have to allow the other player to play first.

AGA rules explicitly don't work like this, replacing it with the players passing until white has passed last and there have been at least two passes. After that scoring works as 'normal'.

The point is that it means both players must have made the same number of moves (either on the board, or by passing), which along with pass stones allows the ruleset to give the same result with territory or area style scoring.

amnal wrote:to give the same result with territory or area style scoring.

AGA rules use area scoring. They give the same result with territory or area counting for area scoring. The pass stones and White passes last enable that the territory counting determines the area score. The last move is a white pass that belongs to a succession of passes, so that Black and White have made an equal number of moves (regardless of who made the last play on the board).

amnal wrote:

AGA rules explicitly don't work like this, replacing it with the players passing until white has passed last and there have been at least two passes.

And that third pass must be DIRECTLY after the two consecutive passes for the game to end, right?

Not directly. There is also the phase of optional agreement for removals.

The reason why I am asking these questions is because I am working on a ruleset of my own. In this ruleset you have to play dead stones out. And I think I realize now that you have to do like this:

black passes - white passes - game over

white passes - black passes - white passes - game over

white passes - black passes - white plays - game continues

white passes - black passes - white plays - black plays - white passes - game continues

white passes - black passes - white plays - black passes - white plays - game continues

go-master wrote:The reason why I am asking these questions is because I am working on a ruleset of my own. In this ruleset you have to play dead stones out. And I think I realize now that you have to do like this:

black passes - white passes - game over

white passes - black passes - white passes - game over

white passes - black passes - white plays - game continues

white passes - black passes - white plays - black plays - white passes - game continues

white passes - black passes - white plays - black passes - white plays - game continues

Trying my best to put this concisely... Howsabout:
The game ends when white makes the second of two consecutive passes.

go-master wrote:The reason why I am asking these questions is because I am working on a ruleset of my own. In this ruleset you have to play dead stones out. And I think I realize now that you have to do like this:

black passes - white passes - game over

white passes - black passes - white passes - game over

white passes - black passes - white plays - game continues

white passes - black passes - white plays - black plays - white passes - game continues

white passes - black passes - white plays - black passes - white plays - game continues

Too complicated. With AGA style rules, if you want to play dead stones out, just say that at the end of play all stones on the board are considered to be alive.

If you want to get different results from AGA rules for certain Moonshine Life type situations, may I suggest using the Ing style of ending play? The cases where you need four passes (maybe five if you combine AGA and Ing) are rare, but they were important to Ing.

Bonobo wrote:

oren wrote:

go-master wrote:My question is: What if white passes first. Then black passes. And then white plays a stone on the board. Would that be illegal by white?

No, just unusual.

I thought if both players pass consecutively the game is over, and if one player wanted to place a stone after this they’d have to allow the other player to play first.

That's Japanese rules. Under AGA rules play simply resumes.

go-master wrote:The reason why I am asking these questions is because I am working on a ruleset of my own. In this ruleset you have to play dead stones out.

What do you want to achieve beyond what is already achieved in rulesets such as

http://home.snafu.de/jasiek/simple.html

? Two successive passes, no life and death in the rules, simple!

If, in a new ruleset, you have to play dead stones out, would it be best to FORCE white to pass an additional pass instead of giving hir an option to play on the board? I mean, what is the purpose of letting white play on the board again? Black isn't given that option.

Jocke wrote:If, in a new ruleset, you have to play dead stones out, would it be best to FORCE white to pass an additional pass instead of giving hir an option to play on the board? I mean, what is the purpose of letting white play on the board again? Black isn't given that option.

For area scoring using territory counting (yeah confusing), it evens up the number of moves each side makes making the two counting systems equal in a vast majority of cases.

later... I think I slightly misunderstood the question. Are you suggesting black pass force white to pass? That could be bad if a point was missed by black. I've had that happen... so white should be able to take it.

oren wrote:Are you suggesting black pass force white to pass? That could be bad if a point was missed by black. I've had that happen... so white should be able to take it.

But white didn't take it the first time. So white has already wasted hir chance.