Life In 19x19

oren wrote:

RobertJasiek wrote:

Boidhre wrote:just that go and chess aren't the kind of things that you can sum up in a small number (10 or so) of books for most players.

For go and up to EGF 5k, it is possible. Above 5k: no.

I see no evidence for this statement.

10 books to reach 5 kyu
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The following existing or anticipated books are needed to turn most initial newbies into EGF 5 kyus, provided they a) play regularly and think about their moves, b) learn from their mistakes and c) learn the books' knowledge to apply it in their games:

1) A book for absolute beginners also teaching simple rules (so that no space of the book is wasted for territory scoring difficulties), the most basic classical opening principles, the advice to learn from one's games and mistakes, Kageyama's advice to be aware and study the fundamentals.

2) A reading + tactics book with problems to reach the tactical level of EGF 20 ~ 15 kyu.

3) First Fundamentals for the conceptual knowledge needed to leave 20k ~ 10k and reach 9k. (For the endgame, this suffices to 5 kyu, so that an extra endgame book is not needed.)

4~6) Three reading + tactics books with problems to reach the tactical level of EGF 5 kyu. Topics: tesuji (such as Tesuji (Davies)), life + death, purpose-orientated tsumego / shape / monkey jump.

7) An opening and joseki book, which is a mixture of a joseki selection similar to 38 Basic Joseki, the most important opening theory of Opening Theory Made Easy and the most basic joseki and conceptual theory of my Joseki series, so that the reader readily understands every move of the selected josekis without having to reinvent basic go theory.

8) The parts of 'Fighting Fundamentals' and 'Attack and Defense' needed until EGF 5 kyu, combined in one book.

9) A middle game book with strategic and other major concepts explained specifically for players up to EGF 5 kyu. E.g., territory versus influence, sacrifice, local move choice, making meaningful moves.

10) A book for those having difficulties, such as how to overcome a basic reading weakness or considering the opponent's view at all.

That should do!

Since already about 10 books are needed to make most players EGF 5 kyu, more than 10 books are needed for turning absolute beginners into players stronger than 5 kyu.

Expanding you statement into details to explain your reasoning is not evidence.

Of course, strictly you are right. However, without concept of how to achieve 10 sufficient books for the purpose, this aim will not be realised.

From my observations, the 10 outlined books contain essentially all the contents needed to become 5 kyu, because most players up to 5 kyus do not make significant numbers of mistakes outside the scope of mentioned contents.

So the question remains whether most players find suitable didactical style. The mixture of conceptual and problem books and the possibility of problems in the conceptual books and vice versa cover the major learning approaches, according to discussions during the last 17 years.

I will not claim this as evidence either but interesting story from Lee Sedol's Commented Games is that mostly up to the time he became an insei, the only books he had access to were the classic problem books. He lived on a small rural island and most of his teaching was direct from his father. He got some commented pro game books later as a gift I think. His brothers and sisters also became quite strong.

I'd say certainly you can reach strong dan level with less books, but I will claim to have no evidence except anecdotal stories (such as your own). This topic is brought around by Robert's arguing someone else's claim with 'lack of evidence', but then makes a similar statement with no supporting evidence of his own.

In the spirit of this thread:

Two book to reach high dan level:
1. good rules pamphlet,
2. large collection of GoSeigen (or almost any other pro) games.

I mean - this is ridiculous.
Robert - you are widely known (at least to me, heh) as making wild but (un)authoritative statements with nothing to support them but your own perception, and this is a good example.

Show me the proof, the numbers, the studies... show me somebody who did that and then prove its not an outlier. Give me more background - like the 'student' has only books to read, does not play games, does not analyse after games, does not watch high-dan kibitz, does not look at pro games, what?

You want to be scientific and exact - then be scientific and exact. Otherwise its only an opinion, not better or worse than the next guy's.
Pulling statements like that out of your... hmm, lets say: hat - and then insisting they must be true because you think so - this is exactly the quality which endears you to so many people around the world.

Bantari wrote:with nothing to support them

As said before, I support my statements by my observations, e.g., of how players up to 5k play and which mistakes they make. You might not believe it, but what I witnessed in hundreds (thousands?) games of such players was that everybody makes almost all the same kinds of mistakes, which prevent them from already becoming stronger.

It is not "evidence" in a strict sense, because I did not film everything I saw, but it is pretty convincing, would you not agree? Go books must teach them to avoid their mistakes; it is this simple!

Otherwise its only an opinion, not better or worse than the next guy's.

The difference is: I rely my opinion not on my own experience of having needed only 4 books and a half (until 5k), but on having observed or carefully studied many games of many other players, see above.

***

Everybody speak up who has studied the regularly occurring mistakes of players up to 5k in at least hundreds of games and found a greater variety of mistakes than can be cured by 10 such books as I mentioned.

Honestly, I can't even actually figure out the question being asked. What exactly are we judging about these books?

hyperpape wrote:What exactly are we judging about these books?

"Would they probably suffice to turn most of their readers from absolute beginners to EGF 5 kyu?" (The players must a) play regularly and think about their moves, b) learn from their mistakes and c) learn the books' knowledge to apply it in their games. The players may get other advice, such as talks with other players or advice from club teachers.)

hyperpape wrote:Honestly, I can't even actually figure out the question being asked. What exactly are we judging about these books?

The question brought up is "can you get beyond EGF 5k with less than 10 books"

Anecdotally many have, so it's not a very interesting question.

oren wrote:
The question brought up is "can you get beyond EGF 5k with less than 10 books"

Anecdotally many have, so it's not a very interesting question.

RobertJasiek wrote:"Would they probably suffice to turn most of their readers from absolute beginners to EGF 5 kyu?" (The players must a) play regularly and think about their moves, b) learn from their mistakes and c) learn the books' knowledge to apply it in their games. The players may get other advice, such as talks with other players or advice from club teachers.)

I think the two of you are talking about different things. Robert appears to be claiming 10 books are sufficient to reach 5Kyu, Oren appears to be discussing whether 10 books are necessary to reach 5kyu.

Polama wrote:

oren wrote:
The question brought up is "can you get beyond EGF 5k with less than 10 books"

Anecdotally many have, so it's not a very interesting question.

RobertJasiek wrote:"Would they probably suffice to turn most of their readers from absolute beginners to EGF 5 kyu?" (The players must a) play regularly and think about their moves, b) learn from their mistakes and c) learn the books' knowledge to apply it in their games. The players may get other advice, such as talks with other players or advice from club teachers.)

I think the two of you are talking about different things. Robert appears to be claiming 10 books are sufficient to reach 5Kyu, Oren appears to be discussing whether 10 books are necessary to reach 5kyu.

Hmm, I was responding to this quote

RobertJasiek wrote:

Boidhre wrote:just that go and chess aren't the kind of things that you can sum up in a small number (10 or so) of books for most players.

For go and up to EGF 5k, it is possible. Above 5k: no.

That would seem to indicate that he believes you need more than 10 or so books to get above 5k. Many dan players have done with less.

oren wrote:

Polama wrote:

oren wrote:
The question brought up is "can you get beyond EGF 5k with less than 10 books"

Anecdotally many have, so it's not a very interesting question.

RobertJasiek wrote:"Would they probably suffice to turn most of their readers from absolute beginners to EGF 5 kyu?" (The players must a) play regularly and think about their moves, b) learn from their mistakes and c) learn the books' knowledge to apply it in their games. The players may get other advice, such as talks with other players or advice from club teachers.)

I think the two of you are talking about different things. Robert appears to be claiming 10 books are sufficient to reach 5Kyu, Oren appears to be discussing whether 10 books are necessary to reach 5kyu.

Hmm, I was responding to this quote

RobertJasiek wrote:

Boidhre wrote:just that go and chess aren't the kind of things that you can sum up in a small number (10 or so) of books for most players.

For go and up to EGF 5k, it is possible. Above 5k: no.

That would seem to indicate that he believes you need more than 10 or so books to get above 5k. Many dan players have done with less.

I think he's talking about summing up all necessary knowledge into book form. Excluding any other ways of learning, such as teaching games, watching/replaying the games of stronger players etc. Learning in a vacuum with only access to players of your own strength or weaker as opponents or similar. Purely a thought exercise rather than something prescriptive.

I would think if a total beginner is paying the right teacher, it would be possible to go beyond 5k with no books if taught for a long enough number of sessions

RobertJasiek wrote:

hyperpape wrote:What exactly are we judging about these books?

"Would they probably suffice to turn most of their readers from absolute beginners to EGF 5 kyu?" (The players must a) play regularly and think about their moves, b) learn from their mistakes and c) learn the books' knowledge to apply it in their games. The players may get other advice, such as talks with other players or advice from club teachers.)

If they get other advice isn't this discussion kinda moot?

If a 9d would teach someone for a period of time that guy would probably get more information than 10 books are worth without actually reading any.

I tend to think that the relation of books to go-playing is sort of like the relation of books to, like, weight-lifting. Maybe if you're reading some sort of one-volume encyclopedia...