Life In 19x19

Quotation reference:
viewtopic.php?p=141240#p141240

HermanHiddema wrote:

RobertJasiek wrote:1) Which Japanese style ruleset?

Whichever a tournament organiser wants.

Your failure even to specify a ruleset (e.g., Verbal-European Japanese Rules) lets it be several times as complicated to apply Japanese style rules, because every current Japanese style ruleset must be considered and their intersection of interpretation determined and applied.

Millions of people have been applying the Japanese rules without trouble for centuries

1) They have not applied THE Japanese Rules, because there have been several Japanese rulesets (Nihon Kiin 1989 Rules, later Nihon Kiin rules, World Amateur Go Championship 1980 Rules, informal verbal Japanese rules, Verbal European-Japanese Rules, German-Japanese Rules, other verbal variants of Japanese rules, various go server variants of Japanese rules), and they have been applying a) one of them or b) a mixture of them or c) not been aware of several existing rulesets or implicit application of a mixture.

2) Millions of people have deceived themselves and possibly others that they would have applied Japanese rules. In fact, typically they have applied some undefined APPROXIMATION to Japanese style rules.

3) There has been a) no apparent trouble when an approximation to the rules enabled the players to hide the difficulties of applying the fundamentals of the rules (move choice and sequences) well, b) trouble among tournament players involved in disputes, c) trouble among club players disagreeing about rules application, d) trouble among beginners to understand the game from its rules at all.

therefore your statement is false.

Therefore my statement is right.

The spread of go has never been held back by Japanese rules,

1) Spreading go has been delayed in Europe (and other parts of the world) by CENTURIES due to the difficulty of understanding Japanese rules! (Read Eurogo 1 for evidence.)

2) In Western countries, go is still not a widely spread game also due to weak spreading of rules explanation. (Since the Internet age and especially since the available of reasonable online rules explanations, the situation has been relaxed a bit.)

3) Japanese rules have prevented an unknown, but definitely not small, number of people from playing go at all and have delayed the start of other people's go playing by years up to decades. (E.g., my own start was delayed by about 10 years DUE TO JAPANESE STYLE RULES. In a few rec.games.go articles, you can even find examples of delays by several decades.)

nor is there any indication that the adoption of Chinese rules has ever had an impact on spreading go.

In fact unfortunately, there is very little indicated that Chinese rules have been significantly spread, except for Chinese living in other countries. Apparently, Ing Rules and AGA Rules have had a greater impact than Chinese rules.

Now that China's economy is growing fast and Chinese can afford to spread go more, this can be changing, and we will see more spreading of Chinese rules. (Although it would be even better if there would be a unified area scoring ruleset.)

It is equally easy for journalists to figure out what the game is about for either rule set.

Area scoring: surely, the journalist can figure it out.

[The Japanese style traditional kind of] territory scoring: the journalist might or might not surpass the hurdle of understanding enough of life and death to understand scoring (which necessarily depends on this distinction).

Understanding the difference of life and death (territory scoring: surrounded by a player's live stones) needs many times the mental effort than just understanding that a stone is on the board (area scoring: surrounded by a player's stones).

Therefore, it is MUCH more difficult to figure out the game for territory scoring.

RobertJasiek wrote:Quotation reference:
viewtopic.php?p=141240#p141240

HermanHiddema wrote:

RobertJasiek wrote:1) Which Japanese style ruleset?

Whichever a tournament organiser wants.

Your failure even to specify a ruleset (e.g., Verbal-European Japanese Rules) lets it be several times as complicated to apply Japanese style rules, because every current Japanese style ruleset must be considered and their intersection of interpretation determined and applied.

I did not fail to specify a rule set, I delegated it to tournament organisers, therefore application is not impacted. I see no reason to force them to use my preference, or your preference.

Millions of people have been applying the Japanese rules without trouble for centuries

1) They have not applied THE Japanese Rules, because there have been several Japanese rulesets (Nihon Kiin 1989 Rules, later Nihon Kiin rules, World Amateur Go Championship 1980 Rules, informal verbal Japanese rules, Verbal European-Japanese Rules, German-Japanese Rules, other verbal variants of Japanese rules, various go server variants of Japanese rules), and they have been applying a) one of them or b) a mixture of them or c) not been aware of several existing rulesets or implicit application of a mixture.

They have applied Japanese rules. Everything else is just a pointless exercise is semantics.

2) Millions of people have deceived themselves and possibly others that they would have applied Japanese rules. In fact, typically they have applied some undefined APPROXIMATION to Japanese style rules.

Millions of people have played go and had fun doing so, while applying without problem the rules as they knew them. They did not "deceive" themselves, and to suggest so is arrogant in the extreme.

3) There has been a) no apparent trouble when an approximation to the rules enabled the players to hide the difficulties of applying the fundamentals of the rules (move choice and sequences) well, b) trouble among tournament players involved in disputes, c) trouble among club players disagreeing about rules application, d) trouble among beginners to understand the game from its rules at all.

therefore your statement is false.

Therefore my statement is right.

The spread of go has never been held back by Japanese rules,

1) Spreading go has been delayed in Europe (and other parts of the world) by CENTURIES due to the difficulty of understanding Japanese rules! (Read Eurogo 1 for evidence.)

Europe had contact with China throughout this period, and knew of go from Chinese sources, yet the game did not spread to Europe from there either, despite the fact that Chinese rules were already used there.

2) In Western countries, go is still not a widely spread game also due to weak spreading of rules explanation. (Since the Internet age and especially since the available of reasonable online rules explanations, the situation has been relaxed a bit.)

3) Japanese rules have prevented an unknown, but definitely not small, number of people from playing go at all and have delayed the start of other people's go playing by years up to decades. (E.g., my own start was delayed by about 10 years DUE TO JAPANESE STYLE RULES. In a few rec.games.go articles, you can even find examples of delays by several decades.)

There is no guarantee that such players would have understood better, or started earlier, with the Chinese rules. Players starting in a vacuum have trouble regardless of the rules, players starting with the help of other local players have no trouble regardless of the rules used.

nor is there any indication that the adoption of Chinese rules has ever had an impact on spreading go.

In fact unfortunately, there is very little indicated that Chinese rules have been significantly spread, except for Chinese living in other countries. Apparently, Ing Rules and AGA Rules have had a greater impact than Chinese rules.

Well, the major spread of Chinese rules was at their invention. I have never heard of any evidence that the spread of Chinese rules caused an upsurge in player numbers in China.

Now that China's economy is growing fast and Chinese can afford to spread go more, this can be changing, and we will see more spreading of Chinese rules. (Although it would be even better if there would be a unified area scoring ruleset.)

It is equally easy for journalists to figure out what the game is about for either rule set.

Area scoring: surely, the journalist can figure it out.

[The Japanese style traditional kind of] territory scoring: the journalist might or might not surpass the hurdle of understanding enough of life and death to understand scoring (which necessarily depends on this distinction).

Understanding the difference of life and death (territory scoring: surrounded by a player's live stones) needs many times the mental effort than just understanding that a stone is on the board (area scoring: surrounded by a player's stones).

Therefore, it is MUCH more difficult to figure out the game for territory scoring.

Journalist do not need to understand life and death, or scoring, to understand what the game is about. A simple explanation along the lines of "Players try to control more of the board than their opponent, and do so by capturing opposing pieces and by walling of areas of the board" suffices.

1) They have not applied THE Japanese Rules, because there have been several Japanese rulesets (Nihon Kiin 1989 Rules, later Nihon Kiin rules, World Amateur Go Championship 1980 Rules, informal verbal Japanese rules, Verbal European-Japanese Rules, German-Japanese Rules, other verbal variants of Japanese rules, various go server variants of Japanese rules), and they have been applying a) one of them or b) a mixture of them or c) not been aware of several existing rulesets or implicit application of a mixture.

I say boot, you say trunk. I say will, you say shall. I say tomahto, you say tomayto. Some people don't even know what what a tomato looks like, and those who do may not know whether it is a fruit or a vegetable. Yet we all use English rules of speech and grammar, and, surprise, surprise, understand each other extremely well. Why, even foreigners who mangle our language can be understood!

1) Spreading go has been delayed in Europe (and other parts of the world) by CENTURIES due to the difficulty of understanding Japanese rules! (Read Eurogo 1 for evidence.)

Utter and absolute bollocks. The fact you can even make such a claim casts a huge pall over your claim to be a researcher. Japan was closed off from the outside world for best part of 300 years by the Shoguns and no-one tried to teach Japanese rules elsewhere. There may be a case that the difficulty of understanding Japanese language delayed the spread of go in recent times, but that is a different thing. The nearest you'll get to contact with go centuries ago in Europe is Thomas Hyde. His first and only contact go was with Chinese rules via a Chinese Jesuit. He totally failed to understand them, yet he got a few characters right. Other Jesuits also later tried to convey go to the west using the Chinese model. They failed. In more recent times, people like Giles tried to present go as a Chinese game. They failed. Go took root in the west because of the Japanese model.

A beloved writer of ours, Miles Kington, once observed that knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad.

It may be hard to pin down what Japanese rules really are, but I think the vast majority of us go players have achieved a little wisdom in our discernment of the worthy use of Japanese rules in our daily fare.

HermanHiddema wrote:Millions of people have played go and had fun doing so,

Sure.

They did not "deceive" themselves, and to suggest so is arrogant in the extreme.

It is possible to discuss without calling somebody arrogant. "Deceive": it is what I have seen everywhere, and what, before I started to actually understand rules, I experienced for myself.

For several years, Bantari and I discussed whether the vicious circle of which is given first, the rules or life+death, could be dissolved at all. This was clarified only in 2002~4. Before, it was unclear whether Japanese style rules had a solid foundation at all.

Europe had contact with China throughout this period, and knew of go from Chinese sources, yet the game did not spread to Europe from there either,

Those in Europe with a serious enough interest in go did not have any or enough access to the core of Chinese rules (removal of libertyless stones, score what is occupied or surrounded by only one player's stones) or (even simpler for knowledge transfer) stone scoring rules, but had access only to Japanese sources.

There is no guarantee that such players would have understood better, or started earlier, with the Chinese rules.

Go rules with area scoring are much easier to understand than almost every other game existing in Western countries. E.g., starting at the age of 4, I learned countless games from rules. I would have had no problem whatsoever to learn go with area scoring from a typical commercial game box's rules leaflet. I expect to same for every serious gamer.

Players starting in a vacuum have trouble regardless of the rules,

No. See above. For each other game, there has been no trouble whatsoever.

Journalist do not need to understand life and death, or scoring, to understand what the game is about. A simple explanation along the lines of "Players try to control more of the board than their opponent, and do so by capturing opposing pieces and by walling of areas of the board" suffices.

This is how a game remains obscure.

John Fairbairn wrote:The fact you can even make such a claim casts a huge pall over your claim to be a researcher.

It is not the first time that you confuse somebody being an expert on some topics with expecting him to be an expert in many fields.

Japan was closed off from the outside world for best part of 300 years

This was one of the other major reasons for the delay. However, despite the country's closure, it was, IIRC, mainly Japanese documents with which Europeans eager to learn to play go at all were confronted.

The nearest you'll get to contact with go centuries ago in Europe is Thomas Hyde. His first and only contact go was with Chinese rules via a Chinese Jesuit.

Interesting. But why do you call it "the nearest"? How did that rules description look like? Was it actually a text describing the rules?

Other Jesuits also later tried to convey go to the west using the Chinese model. They failed.

The Chinese rules model? Why did they fail? Because they did not really know the rules, they could not understand them, they did not explain them well or nobody was interested in learning the game?

In more recent times, people like Giles tried to present go as a Chinese game.

What does "as a Chinese game" mean? "The Chinese rules" or "A game originating from China"?

Go took root in the west because of the Japanese model.

Not because the model was good, but because contacts and involved people were active enough (and later because Japanese actively spread go in the world).

RobertJasiek wrote:It is possible to discuss without calling somebody arrogant.

So you are saying I should not mention behaviour I observe? Or perhaps should not mention such behaviours if they have a negative connotation? Yet you yourself insult millions of people by suggesting that they "deceive themselves".

This is becoming off-topic.

Well, I would like to point out the main thing behind this discussion: Hikaru no Go.

This manga has done more to spread go in the West than the efforts of any professional go organization put together. The story of Sai and Hikaru has meant more to Western go than any ruleset. And because Hikaru no Go is Japanese, players in the West learned Japanese scoring rules and taught others. The Japanese rules didn't do anything to "hold back" people learning go and almost every Western player can directly trace their go playing to this manga.

My learning go is 2 degree's from this manga. A middle school teacher taught me go and he learned about go from Hikaru no Go. Every member of the West Michigan Go Club is only 1-3 degree's removed from this manga (I taught go to one of them, so that's 3 degrees). Only one member of my university's club didn't learn about go from Hikaru no Go. He learned about it from A Beautiful Mind - which has also done more to advance go than most AGA publicity.

In addition to that, once a player learns go, the majority of go books available in English are Japanese translations. These books have created many higher level Western amateurs. Chinese translations are available, and thankfully are becoming more common, but often Kisedo's books are recommended by other players and are often lower priced.

All that being said, the EGF can use whatever ruleset they want. When I participate in an AGA tournament, I use pass stones and a 7.5 komi and I get by just fine. High ranking European go players aren't going to care if they have to switch over to Chinese rules where dame matters and filling in territory doesn't cost you a point - they'll be too busy working to become professionals.

moyoaji wrote:...almost every Western player can directly trace their go playing to this manga.

That's a complete hyperbole. I think you need to get out more.

snorri wrote:That's a complete hyperbole. I think you need to get out more.

We can probably just leave it as "many players" which is true.

moyoaji wrote:almost every Western player can directly trace their go playing to this manga.

Hehehe... you made me smile. If you are serious - no offense, but this is one of the most idiotic remarks I have heard in a long time.

Anyways, lets get serious.
How many Go players play Go due HnG these days? 10%? 5%? 3%?

In my experience, there are three kinds of people who started with Go due to HnG.

1.
Those who fell for the hype of the manga and now already moved on to something else, like flailing rubber samurai swords around, and

2.
Those wo were seriously into full information games to begin with, like chess player looking for something else, and simply did not know about Go before - they would have eventually found Go anyhow, I think, and

3.
Those who were never interested in such games and somehow not only got interested due to HnG but stayed with the game after the cheap hype blew off.

It would be interesting to see the real numbers somewhere, actually... Anybody has looked into that?

Bantari wrote:

moyoaji wrote:almost every Western player can directly trace their go playing to this manga.

Hehehe... you made me smile. If you are serious - no offense, but this is one of the most idiotic remarks I have heard in a long time.

Anyways, lets get serious.
How many Go players play Go due HnG these days? 10%? 5%? 3%?

Even if its not a lot, every bit helps =).

And i think it is still gathering people, for all I know HnG isnt fully released in some countries yet, so while it may be old news for some it might still be an ongoing Manga for people in other countries.

Bantari wrote:Hehehe... you made me smile. If you are serious - no offense, but this is one of the most idiotic remarks I have heard in a long time.

My point was more about the fact that rule systems don't teach go. People find out about go from many sources, but a ruleset is not one of them.

While I used hyperbole, my point was definitely valid. Compared to all efforts ever made by the AGA, EGF, Nihon Ki-in, Chinese Weiqi Association, and Hanguk Kiwon, Hikaru no Go has had far more impact than any one promotion (and arguably more impact in the West than everything the AGA and EGF have ever done).

Bantari wrote:Anyways, lets get serious.
How many Go players play Go due HnG these days? 10%? 5%? 3%?

If you are only looking at players who read the manga and then start playing, sure. However, if you consider players that learned about go from those that read the manga, that number is likely close to 50%, if not above that.

Honestly, of all the Westerners I know in person who play go only two of them did not hear about go because of Hikaru no Go. One watched A Beautiful Mind and the other had a grandfather that played go - this grandfather is also of European decent, making his case extremely rare.

I will ask, for the sake of argument, are you one of them? Did you or the person who taught you go learn about the game from Hikaru no Go?

Bantari wrote:In my experience, there are three kinds of people who started with Go due to HnG.

1. Those who fell for the hype of the manga and now already moved on to something else, like flailing rubber samurai swords around, and

I suppose that is possible. A friend of mine was like that. He used to play go, but now he doesn't and has moved on to RTS games instead. But why are you randomly insulting those involved in cosplay and LARPing? What does their new hobby have to do with anything?

Bantari wrote:2. Those who were seriously into full information games to begin with, like chess players looking for something else, and simply did not know about Go before - they would have eventually found Go anyhow, I think, and

This is probably the largest category. I and the rest of the West Michigan Go Club fall into this category. The fact that we played chess before go does not make the fact that we all learned about it as a result of Hikaru no Go irrelevant.

Bantari wrote:3. Those who were never interested in such games and somehow not only got interested due to HnG but stayed with the game after the cheap hype blew off.

I doubt many of those people exist. Given the cultural significance of chess in the West anyone who would like go would have already learned chess before, and likely would have enjoyed it if they would enjoy go. I suppose this is possible, but I've never met anyone like this.

Bantari wrote:It would be interesting to see the real numbers somewhere, actually... Anybody has looked into that?

I've only ever seen numbers about the success of the manga (22 million copies) and articles saying it has had a big impact.

paK0 wrote:

Bantari wrote:

moyoaji wrote:almost every Western player can directly trace their go playing to this manga.

Hehehe... you made me smile. If you are serious - no offense, but this is one of the most idiotic remarks I have heard in a long time.

Anyways, lets get serious.
How many Go players play Go due HnG these days? 10%? 5%? 3%?

Even if its not a lot, every bit helps =).

And i think it is still gathering people, for all I know HnG isnt fully released in some countries yet, so while it may be old news for some it might still be an ongoing Manga for people in other countries.

This is certainly true. Still, knowing more solid numbers would be interesting.

It's a good point actually, what brings people to Go? The rules don't, but they could put them off. One interesting thing about Hikaru No Go, is that there is hardly any detailed discussion about the rules that I can remember. I know some people who saw the anime and then went to Go club so they could understand what was going on. I think people who read the rules by themselves, don't fully understand them, and have nobody to play against who can explain them - these are the people who quit the game.

As for interpretation of Chinese rules, I expect the approach taken would be the same as that in China. Positional superko can be interpreted as no result by a referee.