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cutting problem

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cutting problem

Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:44 pm
by cherryhill
i was doing this problem from "this is haengma" and i couldn't tell what was wrong with my solution compared to the book's solution. they both seem to cut off the same stone and i cannot refute my own solution even after playing it out on a board so i am wondering what is wrong with it.

variation 1 is the official solution, variation 2 is mine

Re: cutting problem

Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:52 pm
by billywoods
cherryhill wrote:i was doing this problem from "this is haengma" and i couldn't tell what was wrong with my solution compared to the book's solution. they both seem to cut off the same stone and i cannot refute my own solution even after playing it out on a board so i am wondering what is wrong with it.

variation 1 is the official solution, variation 2 is mine

Your move 4 is wrong. Connect at G3 instead. I am stupid.

Re: cutting problem

Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:08 pm
by cherryhill
but if white connects at g3 with move 4, then if i follow up with g6 i can still cut him. hm i must be making a mistake because i cannot see how g6 doesn't work after g3

Re: cutting problem

Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:08 pm
by illluck
billywoods wrote:
cherryhill wrote:i was doing this problem from "this is haengma" and i couldn't tell what was wrong with my solution compared to the book's solution. they both seem to cut off the same stone and i cannot refute my own solution even after playing it out on a board so i am wondering what is wrong with it.

variation 1 is the official solution, variation 2 is mine

Your move 4 is wrong. Connect at G3 instead.
Then doesn't G6 still cut?

Re: cutting problem

Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:09 pm
by billywoods
Oops! Yes, you're both right. :oops:

Re: cutting problem

Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:15 pm
by Kanin
billywoods wrote:Your move 4 is wrong. Connect at G3 instead.
Then black still peeps at G6?

To me it seems that OP got it right, both ways are acceptable ways of cutting.


Oh, and billywoods, I found a hidden tag in your post. What was that all about?

Re: cutting problem

Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:27 pm
by billywoods
Kanin wrote:Oh, and billywoods, I found a hidden tag in your post. What was that all about?
I have no idea what you mean by this...

Re: cutting problem

Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:44 pm
by jts
Does Kim give any comments, either in the Q or the A?

Re: cutting problem

Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:54 pm
by cherryhill
the Q just says, "Cut white with the best sequence".

Re: cutting problem

Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:32 pm
by Kirby
It might be useful to ask if the marked move gives any benefit to black:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O B . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X O X X , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Compared with the end sequence in the alternative variation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X O X X , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
If black tries to play the move now, white probably won't answer the same way. Here's one possibility:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X O X X , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
So I guess to me, I would wonder, again, if the marked exchange benefits black in the slightest:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . W B . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X O X X , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Both variations appear to cut, but if this exchange is even a fraction of a point better for black, that could be the reason it is better.

Re: cutting problem

Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:05 am
by Kanin
billywoods wrote:
Kanin wrote:Oh, and billywoods, I found a hidden tag in your post. What was that all about?
I have no idea what you mean by this...
Well, I didn't realize what it was until now when I checked back in the thread. What happened was that you had already edited your post when I clicked "quote" to include strikeout tags and "I'm stupid". Now, I'm not forum savvy so I didn't know those were strikeout tags so to me it looked like they were tags to make only the original message show, and the "I'm stupid" appeared to be hidden to only show up in a quote. I bet a more experienced forum user would have identified what had happened right away, but to me it all just seemed bizarre :P Anyway, no hidden tags, just normal tags added on in an edit that did not show on my screen since I had not refreshed. My bad!

Re: cutting problem

Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:57 am
by billywoods
Kanin wrote:Well, I didn't realize what it was until now when I checked back in the thread. What happened was that you had already edited your post when I clicked "quote" to include strikeout tags and "I'm stupid". Now, I'm not forum savvy so I didn't know those were strikeout tags so to me it looked like they were tags to make only the original message show, and the "I'm stupid" appeared to be hidden to only show up in a quote. I bet a more experienced forum user would have identified what had happened right away, but to me it all just seemed bizarre :P Anyway, no hidden tags, just normal tags added on in an edit that did not show on my screen since I had not refreshed. My bad!
Oops. :) No problem!

Re: cutting problem

Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:22 am
by illluck
Kirby wrote:It might be useful to ask if the marked move gives any benefit to black:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O B . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X O X X , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Compared with the end sequence in the alternative variation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X O X X , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
If black tries to play the move now, white probably won't answer the same way. Here's one possibility:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X O X X , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
So I guess to me, I would wonder, again, if the marked exchange benefits black in the slightest:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . W B . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X O X X , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Both variations appear to cut, but if this exchange is even a fraction of a point better for black, that could be the reason it is better.
I don't think that exchange is good for black. I think the key takeaway for this problem is just that double peep.

Re: cutting problem

Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:01 am
by leichtloeslich
Does it say anywhere in the book that any move other than the first one of the given main-line solution is necessarily a failure?

And while the given solution may not be better than yours, it clearly is more educational, since it makes the double peep explicit.

Re: cutting problem

Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:18 am
by illluck
leichtloeslich wrote:Does it say anywhere in the book that any move other than the first one of the given main-line solution is necessarily a failure?

And while the given solution may not be better than yours, it clearly is more educational, since it makes the double peep explicit.
Generally in cases like this the book will state that it's also ok to play the wedge first.
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