Life In 19x19

I played a game this morning against another 7k. It has been a while since I've played on KGS (I've been playing at my local club and a few games here and there on FlyOrDie for fun). But I have still been studying and I wanted to know if my go had gotten better.

My goal was to play the best game I possibly could - and I think I did. So I would like to know what I am doing right, and what I am still doing wrong, when playing at my best, because I figure that will show where I am making true mistakes (and not just situational misreads).

I don't really need a review of the whole thing. The game was pretty clearly over at move 158 when I read I could kill black's two stones at top and remove all his territory there. But leading up to that I am wondering what I could have done better and what I should do in the future.



I wasn't trying to play any kind of game (territorial, moyo, etc.) I just wanted to play the best moves at all times. Remembering my fundamentals and making sure I didn't end up in a bad situation was my only real "strategy" for the game. My opponent was very aggressive, he tried to attack and break up anything I did. That's getting more common as I approach the higher SDK levels, but I tried to play calmly and read everything - I used almost all 25 minutes of my clock. I still have a few moves that I know could have been better, but I know that happens a lot even when I'm playing at my best.

12 is a mistake. Once you've been pushed down to the second in one direction, don't give him a chance to push you down in the other direction as well.

24 is off. This high approach only works in fairly rare situations. Non-optimal, but not the end of the world.

84: I think you're playing by rote a move that is very stylish when O15 is a snapback, but here it is not. (At 127, for example, it's more sensible.)

More generally, you're going to find more insight into what you did right and wrong when you feel like you were playing to the limits of your abilities, but you got clobbered anyway. When your opponent is being silly there are lots of moves that are winning moves. When your opponent's shape is bad, every move is a tesuji; when he makes weak groups everywhere, every move is a splitting attack; when he lets you dictate the flow, you never have to follow through with a threat; and so on. So it's still useful to review, but it will be hard to have any real insight into your strengths and weaknesses.

moyoaji wrote:I played a game this morning against another 7k. It has been a while since I've played on KGS (I've been playing at my local club and a few games here and there on FlyOrDie for fun). But I have still been studying and I wanted to know if my go had gotten better.

My goal was to play the best game I possibly could - and I think I did. So I would like to know what I am doing right, and what I am still doing wrong, when playing at my best, because I figure that will show where I am making true mistakes (and not just situational misreads).

I don't really need a review of the whole thing. The game was pretty clearly over at move 158 when I read I could kill black's two stones at top and remove all his territory there. But leading up to that I am wondering what I could have done better and what I should do in the future.

I wasn't trying to play any kind of game (territorial, moyo, etc.) I just wanted to play the best moves at all times. Remembering my fundamentals and making sure I didn't end up in a bad situation was my only real "strategy" for the game. My opponent was very aggressive, he tried to attack and break up anything I did. That's getting more common as I approach the higher SDK levels, but I tried to play calmly and read everything - I used almost all 25 minutes of my clock. I still have a few moves that I know could have been better, but I know that happens a lot even when I'm playing at my best.

That sort of playing comes at a particular level when people are strong enough to realize that positions that they previously thought are secure can be successfully invaded, but not strong enough to realize that the invasion may work locally but fails globally. It's certainly a greedy and overplay laden style, but playing against it also requires good judgement as to when to protect an area. I'm not sure where it ends, but I think it tapers off as one works through the SDK ranks.

That said, such a lopsided win probably isn't the best way to see the flaws in your play, though it may indicate that when you are at your best, you play several stones stronger than your current rank.

jts wrote:12 is a mistake. Once you've been pushed down to the second in one direction, don't give him a chance to push you down in the other direction as well.

I see. I was kind of trying to get back to the 3-3 invasion following low approach joseki because I like that result for the person invading and I figured his awkward stone that he'd just played on the outside would look really awkward next to the kind of wall he got (and it did). However, I suppose it was sort of aji-keshi at best and he could have just pressed me down on the other side in exchange for getting a wall facing the other direction. You're probably right.

jts wrote:24 is off. This high approach only works in fairly rare situations. Non-optimal, but not the end of the world.

I read in "The Second Book of Go" that a high approach is good when you don't want to be pincered. Is there another use for it that is better? Or is that description inaccurate?
I thought a long time about that move. Here was my justification:
If I play the high approach, a pincer is supposedly inadvisable. However, since he auto-pincered me before and he wants to build the bottom with his wall, he'll probably pincer me, so I can counter-pincer and then either steal a big corner or build up solid outside influence while sealing him in the corner.
I knew he would pincer me. Auto-pincer players just auto-pincer. (And I'm getting tired of seeing it at this level...) But let's say he didn't, just for fun. If he does pull back like he's supposed to, then I build up something on the bottom to limit his wall (likely in exchange for giving him a good corner). But I already had a good corner of my own and, frankly, I knew he would pincer.

jts wrote:84: I think you're playing by rote a move that is very stylish when O15 is a snapback, but here it is not. (At 127, for example, it's more sensible.)

Yes, 84 was a mistake. It is one of the moves I regret playing. And you are exactly right, I misread and thought it was a snapback. "As good as passing" I think is the correct way to talk about that move.

jts wrote:More generally, you're going to find more insight into what you did right and wrong when you feel like you were playing to the limits of your abilities, but you got clobbered anyway.

True, but many higher level players on the KGS only want to play higher level players (for this reason). I figured automatch would put me with someone about my own level and that would be a good way to judge my current strength. I was disappointed when my opponent made so many overplays, but I had my goal of playing my best game and posting it for analysis so I followed through. I guess I should have waited and played another game.

skydyr wrote:That sort of playing comes at a particular level when people are strong enough to realize that positions that they previously thought are secure can be successfully invaded, but not strong enough to realize that the invasion may work locally but fails globally. It's certainly a greedy and overplay laden style, but playing against it also requires good judgement as to when to protect an area. I'm not sure where it ends, but I think it tapers off as one works through the SDK ranks.

I hope it does. It is very tiring to play against greedy opponents and, frankly, it isn't fun. That's half the reason I haven't been playing much online.
I'll show you the game that made me both angry (because of his mega-greedy-coupled-with-overplays style) and exceedingly happy (because I got to punish this player so badly). Since this game I have only played 2 ranked KGS games (one was the one today) because I felt like KGS was turning into FlyOrDie (which I hate but play on because I don't take the server seriously because who can take FlyOrDie seriously?).

skydyr wrote:That said, such a lopsided win probably isn't the best way to see the flaws in your play, though it may indicate that when you are at your best, you play several stones stronger than your current rank.

That would be nice. I did beat an AGA 5k at the last club meeting in a best of 3 series. He said my fundamentals were good and I was probably at least at an AGA 5k level so it is possible I'm better than 7k.

moyoaji wrote: I'll show you the game that made me both angry (because of his mega-greedy-coupled-with-overplays style) and exceedingly happy (because I got to punish this player so badly). Since this game I have only played 2 ranked KGS games (one was the one today) because I felt like KGS was turning into FlyOrDie (which I hate but play on because I don't take the server seriously because who can take FlyOrDie seriously?).

This was my last game as an 8k on the KGS. I even did my opponent the nicety of letting his group on the left live (if he wanted to fix it in gote) because I wanted to take sente and felt my wall was more than enough compensation for his sad little open-board invasion. The fix and a gross half-second to play misread cost him the game by 50 moves.

There's nothing terribly wrong with killing that group on the left. It's at least 20 points in gote and means that white got a great wall for nothing. Either way, though, the game looks pretty hard for black after that exchange.

That said, you might try asking for even games against someone around 5 kyu on kgs and see how you do. You're more likely to get someone at that level to play you if you request it, I think.

moyoaji wrote:I see. I was kind of trying to get back to the 3-3 invasion following low approach joseki ...

12 would be a mistake in that joseki as well.

moyoaji wrote:You're probably right.

moyoaji wrote:

jts wrote:24 is off. This high approach only works in fairly rare situations. Non-optimal, but not the end of the world.

I read in "The Second Book of Go" that a high approach is good when you don't want to be pincered. Is there another use for it that is better?

Richard Bozulich surely knows more about go and teaching go than I do. But I've seen the high move played mainly when W wants to jump up next and is afraid B will try to keep him low. To give you some sense of the relative popularity of the two moves, the low approach has 150 pages in Ishida and the high approach has 5.

Maybe we should browse through the 80 games where there was a high approach on EidoGo and see what gives. (Versus 6,000 for the low approach.) The big picture is that it's very hard to give up corner access just because you're afraid of a pincer. After all, threatening the corner is the reason we approach the 4-4 in the first place... corners before sides and all that.

moyoaji wrote:Yes, 84 was a mistake. It is one of the moves I regret playing. And you are exactly right, I misread and thought it was a snapback. "As good as passing" I think is the correct way to talk about that move.

Note also that even if you could capture those two stones, is already solidly connected all the way back to a very solid, very alive corner.

moyoaji wrote: True, but many higher level players on the KGS only want to play higher level players (for this reason). I figured automatch would put me with someone about my own level and that would be a good way to judge my current strength. I was disappointed when my opponent made so many overplays, but I had my goal of playing my best game and posting it for analysis so I followed through.

"Best game" can mean that you played unusually well, or that you played unusually well relative to your opponent; not quite the same thing. Games where you got lucky are very exciting if there's a big rank gap or it was a tournament or whatever, but the most exhilarating games are usually the ones where you're proud of your play and can't see any mistakes from your opponent, either.

Anyway, if you want to play stronger players ask in the KTL or the L19 room or something. (On KGS, I mean.)

moyoaji wrote:I hope it does. It is very tiring to play against greedy opponents and, frankly, it isn't fun. That's half the reason I haven't been playing much online.

I would discourage attributing vices and emotional flaws to your opponents. You will always have stylistic differences with your opponents, no matter how strong you get. You will always have games where you think "why on earth would he play there?" and then get even more frustrated after he makes The less you focus on whether a player is greedy or disrespectful or obnoxious, the better you play and the more you enjoy your games.

moyoaji wrote:That would be nice. I did beat an AGA 5k at the last club meeting in a best of 3 series. He said my fundamentals were good and I was probably at least at an AGA 5k level so it is possible I'm better than 7k.

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Congratulations! Sounds like a fun match. I would focus on just playing games, though. In match-ups at the club you should focus on what your handicap is with each of your regular opponents. And when you play on KGS, the server takes care of the math for you. There's no real need to worry about these things. If you want your rank to go up in the future, lose a lot of games now.

I think black made a couple of huge mistakes in this game, which even I feel confident to recognize:
- At move 67 he enters your upper right shimari and creates a weak group thereby donating to you about 20 pts of solid territory in upper right corner. Instead he could have played e. g. C14 to develop the left side.
- Move 81 simply lets you break through - I almost looks like a misclick(?)
- The approach in move 87 is rather unusual. At move 87 the board looks like if black could develop a moyo at left side and white has some loose upper left corner enclosure. Instead developing the left side he enters your corner enclosure and about 20 stones later, black lives in upper left corner with 8 pts and white starts to claim the whole left side -- almost unbelievable...

So, even if a win by a large margin is always nice, in this game you were really forced by black to take the points, there was not much other choice...