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Best strategy for white in 3-4 w/ side stone extension

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Best strategy for white in 3-4 w/ side stone extension

Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:59 am
by Kirby
This joseki seems to be a fad these days:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black: 0 White: 0
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . .
$$ | . . 4 1 . . 5 . . .
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . ,
$$ | . 8 . 2 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Personally, I prefer black here, because if black plays here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black: 0 White: 0
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . B X . . . . . .
$$ | . . O X . . X . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . ,
$$ | . O . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


White feels cramped, and has to do something about his group.

But if black plays there, it's common for white to play here to fight back:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black: 0 White: 0
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . O X . . X . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . ,
$$ | . O . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . W . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]



It's not totally clean for white on the side, but he can probably gain advantage on the left to compensate for black's play at the top.

But what about this position?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black: 0 White: 0
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


It seems unappealing now for white to approach, because now he just has to run:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Black: 0 White: 0
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 8 6 . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 X . . 4 . . .
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . ,
$$ | . 7 . 1 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Maybe it's good enough for white since black already had two stones in the area. But it seems like black can take control of the game in this area, because white will have to run out.

Is this the best strategy for white to play when the initial board position was as given (assuming black played as described)?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black: 0 White: 0
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Re: Best strategy for white in 3-4 w/ side stone extension

Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:26 am
by judicata
I've been interested in this joseki, too. Could you clarify what you're question is about? Some of the possible issues I see:

(1) What are some ideas for approaching this formation as white? (Knowing, of course, that it depends on the whole board):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black: 0 White: 0
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


(2) How should white response to this low pincer? (again, generally) I think white needs to get out, so 'a' and 'b' are possibilities, perhaps.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Black: 0 White: 0
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . a b . . ,
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


(3) What should white do in this situation?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Black: 0 White: 0
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 X . . 4 . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Re: Best strategy for white in 3-4 w/ side stone extension

Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:38 am
by Kirby
judicata wrote:(2) How should white response to this low pincer? (again, generally) I think white needs to get out, so 'a' and 'b' are possibilities, perhaps.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Black: 0 White: 0
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . a b . . ,
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]




Thanks, this is very fascinating. In particular, it looks like 'a' might be playable in this situation, which I hadn't considered. Here's an example pro game:

http://eidogo.com/#2I2vAV:0,31

It's got a funky followup, too:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . 3 . . . ,
$$ | . . 4 1 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Of course, this is just a single pro game, but the local position is similar to what I was curious about.

Re: Best strategy for white in 3-4 w/ side stone extension

Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:44 am
by SmoothOper
Kirby wrote:This joseki seems to be a fad these days:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black: 0 White: 0
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . .
$$ | . . 4 1 . . 5 . . .
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . ,
$$ | . 8 . 2 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]



I've seen it at top level play on IGS, and I must admit 5 left me scratching my head as to what was going on.

Re: Best strategy for white in 3-4 w/ side stone extension

Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:33 pm
by judicata
Kirby wrote:
It's got a funky followup, too:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . 3 . . . ,
$$ | . . 4 1 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Of course, this is just a single pro game, but the local position is similar to what I was curious about.


:w5: makes my head explode. :shock:

Re: Best strategy for white in 3-4 w/ side stone extension

Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:11 pm
by emeraldemon
Did you see today's samsung cup match?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c black tennuki
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 0 7 . . . . . .
$$ | . . 4 1 . . 5 . . .
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . .
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 9 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Re: Best strategy for white in 3-4 w/ side stone extension

Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:16 pm
by Kirby
emeraldemon wrote:Did you see today's samsung cup match?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c black tennuki
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 0 7 . . . . . .
$$ | . . 4 1 . . 5 . . .
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . .
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 9 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


I haven't seen the Samsung Cup match, no.

Locally, the :w8:, :b9: exchange feels bad for white to me. White doesn't have to run this way, and can live in the corner, I guess. But black is strengthened with :b9:, and it makes me wonder if white gained sufficient compensation.

Re: Best strategy for white in 3-4 w/ side stone extension

Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:20 pm
by oren
Kono Rin did a series of articles in Weekly Go recently about this joseki. Next time you're at the go center you can check them out or remind me to see when it was in and you can check it out on egobooks.

Re: Best strategy for white in 3-4 w/ side stone extension

Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:28 pm
by Kirby
oren wrote:Kono Rin did a series of articles in Weekly Go recently about this joseki. Next time you're at the go center you can check them out or remind me to see when it was in and you can check it out on egobooks.


Thanks, oren. Does posting here constitute a reminder for you to see which issues these were included in on egobooks? :-)

Re: Best strategy for white in 3-4 w/ side stone extension

Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:03 pm
by oren
Kirby wrote:
oren wrote:Kono Rin did a series of articles in Weekly Go recently about this joseki. Next time you're at the go center you can check them out or remind me to see when it was in and you can check it out on egobooks.


Thanks, oren. Does posting here constitute a reminder for you to see which issues these were included in on egobooks? :-)


I'm too easy to distract at work. It looks like it starts on June 24, 2013. Some weeks seem to be skipped later in summer, so I'd have to figure out which newspapers have the rest of his studies on it.

https://e-gobooks.nihonkiin.or.jp/produ ... ct_id=1118
小目の一間バサミ大研究

Re: Best strategy for white in 3-4 w/ side stone extension

Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:15 pm
by Loons
Another common joseki:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm4 Black: 0 White: 0
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 7 4 . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 X . . 2 . . 8
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . ,
$$ | . 5 . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 6 , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Perhaps we can infer that if :b9: is already in place this choice may not be good for white, though white gets pretty lively.

Re: Best strategy for white in 3-4 w/ side stone extension

Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:47 pm
by emerus
I like this:

emeraldemon wrote:Did you see today's samsung cup match?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c black tennuki
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 0 7 . . . . . .
$$ | . . 4 1 . . 5 . . .
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . .
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 9 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


The two space extension on the left side would be a poor shape so early in the opening. I strongly doubt :b5: is the strongest move. It might occur in amateur games from imitation so it's a useful discussion.

Speaking of which, I think this situation would only occur very early in the opening and a complete board would be necessary to find the "right" move. In any situation that I can imagine, I think a simple white extension to k17 is more appropriate than an invasion that leaves black comfortable on both sides and concedes sente.

Re: Best strategy for white in 3-4 w/ side stone extension

Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:13 pm
by emeraldemon
Here is the full board Situation where Tang Weixing played it against Lee Sedol:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Lee Sedol vs Tang Weixing
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . 8 . 1 5 X 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . 2 7 . . 3 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Best strategy for white in 3-4 w/ side stone extension

Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:47 pm
by Loons
Contextually, this is where I know this joseki from:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm6 Acceptable play by both
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . X 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Also acceptable play by both
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . X 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Both the inward turn and the extension on the right are good (by black); maybe the extension on the right is better.

If it seems strange, you may feel more comfortable with this more familiar kind of tenuki:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 2 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Which you could compare and contrast.

Re: Best strategy for white in 3-4 w/ side stone extension

Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:51 pm
by SmoothOper
emeraldemon wrote:Here is the full board Situation where Tang Weixing played it against Lee Sedol:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Lee Sedol vs Tang Weixing
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . 8 . 1 5 X 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . 2 7 . . 3 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


There it looks like Tang used the play out of a subverted mini-Chinese, to get sente and leave a bunch of aji? Maybe Tang didn't want to let white form a moyo on the left, so instead of forming his own moyo he opted for a loose invasion. Maybe whites one space extension from the hoshi(instead of the small knight enclosure) prompted this mess?
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