Robert: i ignore all your post and comment because i do not wish to engage in endless argument with you.
I WILL SAY IT AGAIN: "DO NOT QUOTE MY COMMENTS OR COMMENTS RELATED TO MY COMMENT."

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"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

Now, this offers meaning. However, I am not convinced that "flowing like water" etc. would have this and only this and not possibly some very other meaning.

For someone "ignoring" all my posts you reply frequently.



Not you decide what I write - I decide what I write.

i am not going to argue this with you...but i will mentor you on life and society (personal attack deleted by admin).
it is not what you decide. It is what admin decide. I will let them make a decision and keep kool~~

ADMIN: Personal attacks are not allowed on this forum.

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"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

kool -> cool

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Amsterdam, soon.

I read often that Honinbo Shuei's play 'flows like water'. Perhaps I will retire to my zen space and replay his games on a board until an epiphany strikes from the heavens.

Ah, another brethren on the same path. Welcome my brother.

I've certainly heard of his play having a strong component of maintaining miai in any situation, which may mean the same thing.

Were it only that simple! Probably it's necessary to think more holistically about Takagawa's style. Sakata liked to take kikashi early, fix postiions, and knock his opponents down with sharp fighting. Takagawa liked to keep his kikashi in reserve. It would seem this is related to his ability to make territorial exchanges later in the game. That's my opinion. I haven't seen proof of that with respect to other players or theory in general.

So to acheive that, it's not just tenuki, because a lot of tenukis incur a global loss. I think to play that way, you have to have superb positional judgement, otherwise your trades will lose points. Your water will be flowing, but it will just be flowing off a cliff.

You can look at Nie Weiping, too. He dislikes all-or-nothing positions and is often cited as a good example for balance.

Flowing like water has also been used for playing styles very different from that. It is interesting to study Takagawa's playing style etc., but flowing like water must, if anything, be something more general.

My own interpretation of what's essential to a 'flowing like water' style is the ability to play 'around' an opponents strategy rather than resist them. With a territorial style, you can tell early where that player's points will come from. With a fighting style, you can see which groups the player is weakening to profit from with a chase or kill. But the idea behind 'flowing like water' is to create positions where you'll profit from diverse continuations. This could be a very miai focused way of playing, so your key points shift across the board when an opponent attacks. It could be a tenuki focused way of playing, giving your opponent what he thought he wanted and profiting more. It could even be a life&death focused way of playing, being able to give your opponent accommodatingly large potential territory and then living in it.

Some middle games seem to have a clear direction to them: You can count up a meaningful fraction of the final score and identify a few specific goals the players need to accomplish to win. We can imagine different sequences leading to different endings that look somewhat alike. With a 'flowing' style, we'd expect the different imagined sequences to diverge into totally different end positions. Maybe that's territory, maybe it's sacrificed. Maybe that group is attacked, maybe it's left alone.

did i mention about the rhythm of the play?
sometime the sequence of play is ordered in a way that it is like a flow of the water.
when you play in that perfect harmonious sequence...it will give appearance like a flowing water.
you are not forcing the issue or in a situation where you do not know where to play.
it is like a guided path of sequence so smooth and natural it will give you comfort playing that move.

is water metaphor symbolic? no it is real.
If i have time i would give you example of such sequence...but i will leave them to someone else

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"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

Very good theory about what it is or could be or else a very nice suggestion and description of a style (where I expected a strategic concept), thank you!

If you let flow the capitals like water there will be more harmony and rhythm in your texts

Here's a short sequence from Attack and Defense, p. 176, in which black replies to a white invasion. To me it evokes the flow of water. I'm not quite sure though how such a concept relates to feeling rushed.

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Patience, grasshopper.

The sequence involves inductions. I do not see that water would add any drop of information. In particular, the sequence alone does not explain why White does not sacrifice his stone. Why would running out be any more water-flowing than sacrificing and exchanging or vice versa?

Do you speak of flow in a strategic concept sense, such as here?
http://senseis.xmp.net/?FlowOfTheStones

To me it evokes black and white drops dripping down. It fits with the sound of snow melting outdoors from the roof, right now.

This may not be the meta phor you

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Tactics yes, Tact no...

Would you say that it is nothing more than just a metaphor at all?

(If I tried to apply 'flow like water' in a direct sense, then I would understand "Occupy the middle point of the largest empty space immediately!". Because this is the sink where water would want to flow to. Ok, if the flow aspect is stressed, then I would also understand: "Try to occupy the middle point of the largest empty space by moving the current fights / actions in that direction." Both interpretations would be bad. Therefore, I dislike such a metaphorical approach.)

Robert:

Methinks the metaphor “flow of water” is one meta level higher than you seem to think: for me it’s less about the physical “flow” of the stones on the board (your sink picture) but rather about the mindset of the player that shows in the flow of the stones on the board, about they way they handle a situation, not the handling of the situation itself. Something like direct vs. indirect reaction; I believe, e.g., what you write in one of your books, “do not obey your opponent”, is something could relate to this.

But I also may be way off with this


Greetings, Tom

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“The only difference between me and a madman is that I’m not mad.” — Salvador Dali ★ Play a slooooow correspondence game with me on OGS?